belated RH 3x12 post

[jedi_of_urth]

3x12, in which something matters way more to me than Guy for once

Well, I’ve been putting off thinking too much about last Saturday’s episode but since we’re coming up on the season finale in a couple days I thought I should document some thoughts.

The thing is I’m actually not all that terribly broken up by Allan’s death. I’m upset yeah, sad sure, but not going crazy because of it the way I did with Marian’s death, and while I’m pretty sure I’ll let Allan survive most AU stories I write, the AU starts with fixing the season 2 mess (yes this is in reference to my bigbanghood plans, so shocking). But that doesn’t mean I’ve been looking forward to writing about this episode.

I was semi spoiled for Allan’s death, in that people had been cloaking it decently but reading between the lines I was pretty sure it was coming in this or the final episode. I was not happy with the idea, particularly Allan had gotten so little to do this season, I loved Allan last season, but he’s pretty well faded to the background this year. But I’m still going to miss him, still I can picture him on the fluffy cloud of characters past, sharing Marian’s popcorn and making a play for Roy’s candy stash with Tom and while they all settle in to watch the finale and see who’s joining them next.

Allan’s death was sad, but I think it was a little too functional in some ways. Allan died because the writer’s decided to kill him, because they wanted to say something about the coming story (remind people Vasey is Bad News, show that they’re not going to shy from killing characters this round (not that they did last year), etc.). Although, knowing me, I’ll get more chocked up about it when I go back and watch it than I did on first watch, that’s pretty much how I work.

On the other hand I don’t think I’ll be as excited for Vasey’s return again. I squeed a little when I saw Keith Allen’s name back in the credits and even a little at the end when he was finally revealed (not that, with his name it the credits I didn’t fully expect that to be who Allan was talking to), but now…I’m kind of past caring. Looking back on it, I’m not *sure* I could say I’ve missed him, there’s been plenty of other things making me happy (the rise and fall of the Gisborne kids primarily) especially since I’m pretty sure he’s just coming back to get killed off again (since I’m pretty sure KA is leaving the show for good).

Switching gears a bit, I think Izzy is still a good Sheriff. I know the show doesn’t agree, but she’s not terrorizing peasants for her own fun (Vasey and especially PJ totally would be). Sure she could defy Prince John about conscripting the peasants as soldiers, but would he really let that stand? Yes it’s for acting against King Richard but I suspect that Izzy doesn’t really care who rules England as long as her position is safe and with Robin making it clear that he’ll see to it that she’s *not* safe if KR does come back and PJ won’t react well to her or Nottingham if she refuses, what’s she going to do? Even when she’s conspiring with Kate mom, she’s using the carrot rather than the rod. Compared it with Vasey’s use of Roy’s mother, Vasey said “Do this or I’ll hang her,” while Isabella uses “Do this and I’ll get you guys out of Nottingham before it gets worse.” I’m not arguing she hasn’t gone a little nuts, mostly based on justifiable paranoia, but she’s not actually evil in my eyes.

Also, she looked really hot in that dress this week.[/girlcrush]

And she actually had a plan for going after the Outlaws in a way Vasey very seldom has. And it was a good plan, whether she knew it or not especially with the cracks in the gang already surfacing because of Robin/Kate and Guy’s addition to the group. In fact I’m going to see that as the reason why she only started this attack on them now (it hasn’t been all that long since she learned Guy had joined the group) so she thought this would be a good time to attack their bonds of fellowship and all that.

Which for the moment brings us back to Allan. Poor Allan and how quickly everyone turns on him. I find the order in which he appeals to people interesting. First he turns to Much, who’s been his best friend this year but Much will always take Robin’s side even when he shouldn’t. That one’s the one that really breaks my heart, because for all of Allan’s mocking Much, it’s clear he really was Allan’s best friend.

Then it’s Guy, which is an interesting choice since Guy’s not really in a position to say anything about Allan’s loyalty. Realistically Guy could only have hurt Allan’s chances especially when so many of the others were at the moment more set on Allan’s guilt than on Guy’s possible loyalties. But I think I can take it as a “Hey I stood up for you when you showed up here” appeal in addition to their past friendship and that makes it make some sense; but Guy’s sort of shrug-half-smirk totally reads to me as “Really, you’re acking me to vouch for your loyalty?” in part about Allan’s betraying him last year after turning traitor on the gang in the first place, plus Guy only just got there, what could he really say?

Then Tuck and finishing on Robin. I think he has the least expectation of Robin believing him, since Robin reacted the worst to his first betrayal and seemed to hold on to it the longest. Allan knew he was innocent, but he didn’t have as much faith that Robin would see that as he did with the others. It’s hard to say where Little John would have fallen in that if it hadn’t been the one barging in with the accusations.

The one flaw in the plan is logic, since really it wouldn’t be *too* hard to see through to lie if everyone wasn’t already strung out. But they were, especially since they were on the verge of going on the mission so they didn’t take the time to actually think about it or listen to Allan at all.

As far as the plan with Kate it’s kind of the same thing. Kate’s always been a little isolated within the gang, but since her hookup with Robin and then Guy joining the group and their planning to go on this big mission she’s high strung and no one to fall back on after her first talk with her mom. Also I’m pretty sure it’s something she has worried about with Robin, that he’d rather be with Isabella, or still cares for her; and maybe Robin has a bit of a reputation as a ladies man adding to Kate’s suspicions that she’s not the only woman in his life. Yes I’m trying to make sense of Kate’s actions, which are pretty hard for me to manage, but I’m trying.

I do think there’s a sliver of Izzy’s personal truth in her lie about her and Robin. I don’t think she really believes it, but I think a part of her wants to. She broke up with him because she was hurt and because PJ found them out, not because she stopped wanting to be with him in that dream of hers. And up until she killed Thornton, he didn’t give her any reason to think he felt nothing for her so in her mind it’s still a chance.

Funny how what you would expect to be an Allan focused review manages to spill over into Gisborne family love. Also why was she Isabella of Gisborne at the end? That kind of bugged me.

Oh yeah, and Izzy’s incest-riffic interactions with Archer were made of win. I half ship those two for shear dirty-wrongness I kind of want those two to rule Nottingham next year (but with less incest because it would make me uncomfortable then), because Archer would make an awesome henchman to Izzy’s brains and both of them delightfully morally grey (although he is at the good end of the spectrum and she’s edging towards the darker edge).

But that’s about all the Archer I feel like commenting on, I’m still reserving opinion on him. And I had a few thoughts on Robin, particularly how he dealt with the Kate situation this week, but they’re slipping past me now that I’m actually trying to think about it. So, basically on to Guy thoughts.

To start with, why none of the peasants act surprised at Guy working with the Outlaws is beyond me. Especially since it’s in Locksley where Guy has been living for all these years and the peasants supposedly hate him so much to justify all the cheering at the hanging a few weeks ago. Couldn’t we at least have gotten a few ‘WTF GISBORNE?!’ reactions?

We still didn’t get any real Guy-Allan interaction, and now we won’t. I expect fanfic to fill in the gap. I’m sure it will so I’m not worried. There’s a decent amount of contradictory secondary evidence regarding how much time there was between last week and this one so people can do as they want. And whether it’s about Guy and Allan or Robin or whoever or none at all, we do need to know where Guy wound up sleeping.

They’re still managing Guy’s redemption arc fairly well, not making him suddenly turn all cuddly (not that that keep me from wanting to cuddle him) and nice. He’s still very Guy, with all the flaws and strengths that entails. I worry a little what Vasey’s return will do to a) his place in the gang and b) the redemption arc in general. Since his killing Vasey was so much of what got the gang’s attention in the first place, but I’d hate to see him cast out in the midst of realizing he failed, which is sure to upset him as much as the rest of them.

I also suspect Vasey’s spoiling for a revenge bout, and it seems to be backed up on the show so far, so I’m doubtful he’s going to make a play for Guy’s loyalties again, which is a bit of a relief on the redemption arc front but I don’t really trust the writers to not pull another 180 with his character (after last season’s finale I think I’m entitled to worry). I do suspect he’ll be a little tempted, but it wouldn’t be a redemption arc unless he was I guess, although it seems it could wait.

So, on short notice, here’s my guesses for the finale (only some casting spoilers):

Robin: low survivability odds. Jonas Armstrong is leaving and I don’t think there’s much way to get him off the show without killing him. But it’ll be the heroic death Allan didn’t get, since Robin is the title character and all.

Much: low survivability odds, mostly based on Robin’s odds. Because I just can’t see Much without Robin. Unfortunately, this means we probably won’t actually see them make up like they need to, or if we do it will be another on the brink of death Robin will *say* he’s sorry but they’ll never actually get to live it.

Little John: decent odds of survival, but not great. It would be more of an added body count death than one for its own sake, but it could happen.

Tuck: I *want* him to die heroically because that actually seems like a reasonable thing to have happen to his character and it would mean he wouldn’t be back which is fine with me. But I’m not going to count on it happening.

Kate: sigh. Kate will probably survive, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if someone else died to save her. But she doesn’t have to die exactly for her not to have to be on the show next year so I can at least hope for that, and that it’s not someone I really really love that dies for her sake.

Guy: I can probably take him dying better than I could take him turning back to the dark side, so I’m concentrating my Guy hopes on that front. But even his odds of surviving on the good side aren’t too bad in my mind, out of the four option I’d say it’s got the best (I may be in denial though).

Vasey: slim to so chance of surviving, between KA supposedly leaving and just everybody going to be out for his blood I don’t see much chance.

Isabella: I hope she survives, but I wouldn’t lay odds on it. Wouldn’t bet against her either though so I really have no idea. It’d be awesome if she *and* Guy were outlaws next season, almost as awesome as her and Archer running the castle.

Archer: the only one I’d really bet on making it out alive. He’s a new special character, he’s not going to get killed in this episode.

Of course I would have strongly bet against Marian’s death last year too so that should be considered in my predictions.

Comments

[corrielle.livejournal.com]

As usual, while I read this post I was nodding and occasionally pointing at my screen and saying, "YES! THAT! EXACTLY!" I wasn't spoiled for Allan's death at all, so it hit me pretty hard, but I'm still not as broken up as I was over Marian. I don't think anything is ever going to top that. *knocks on wood*

I can picture him on the fluffy cloud of characters past, sharing Marian’s popcorn and making a play for Roy’s candy stash with Tom and while they all settle in to watch the finale and see who’s joining them next.

This is the cutest image ever. Can Carter be there too, jealously guarding his over-priced heavenly theater slurpee? (Allan might lose a hand if he tries anything...)

I think it was a little too functional in some ways. Allan died because the writer’s decided to kill him,

Yes yes yes a THOUSAND times yes. For a long time, this show has been treating a lot of their characters as functions. They're there to fulfill some specific purpose, not to be interesting, well-rounded people. Tuck and Kate suffer from this the most, I think, mostly because they weren't established before this season, but it happened to John and Allan and Much as well. But to have them use a CHARACTER DEATH in such an obvious functional way? It's... bad form, I tell you. Well-written shows have characters serving functions as well, but they offset it with good character development and thoughtful plotting. Allowing it to be so blatantly obvious is like putting together a piece of clothing and leaving the seams showing. I don't want to see seams in my stories.

Compared it with Vasey’s use of Roy’s mother, Vasey said “Do this or I’ll hang her,” while Isabella uses “Do this and I’ll get you guys out of Nottingham before it gets worse.” I’m not arguing she hasn’t gone a little nuts, mostly based on justifiable paranoia, but she’s not actually evil in my eyes.

That's so true! Isabella may be a little less than stable, and she may be cruel where her brother and Robin are concerned, but she's not EVIL. She's also more subtle than Vasey, I think. She knows she's more likely to get Rebecca to cooperate with a promise of freedom. Giving her "operative" something to look forward to, something to lose, (like the opportunity to get her whole family out of Nottingham)is actually pretty clever of her.

Since his killing Vasey was so much of what got the gang’s attention in the first place, but I’d hate to see him cast out in the midst of realizing he failed, which is sure to upset him as much as the rest of them.

Yikes. I can only hope that the gang will believe him when he says he was sure he'd killed Vasey. They have every reason not to, though, and I almost wouldn't blame them for thinking he'd been playing them all along.

I can probably take him dying better than I could take him turning back to the dark side

Me too. As much as I love watching RA act, as much as I love Guy as a character, as much as I would miss him terribly, I would rather have him die than go back to being the way he was.

That being said, I really REALLY hope that the writers don't mess up his redemption. I can't believe that they'll have him end up a bad guy, though. (I kind of want to see him be tempted and MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE for once.) To have him come this far and then go back to Vasey would be throwing everything he's gone through all season out the window. (Wait... that complaint sounds familiar... where have I heard that befo-- oh crap. *is now terrified for Guy's developing morality*)

Your odds make a whole lot of sense to me... My "likelihood of dying" list, in descending order from "most likely" to "least likely" goes something like this: Robin, Vasey, Much, Guy, Isabella, Little John, Tuck, Kate, and Archer. Robin and Vasey are almost sure things for me, Much and Guy's chances aren't much better, Isabella, LJ, and Tuck are in danger only because killing them would, as you said, up the body count, and Kate and Archer are pretty safe. Kate because they killed a female lead last season, and Archer because they're setting him up to take Robin's place. (If Archer dies, it'll be one of the greatest fake outs ever...)

[jedi_of_urth]

Can Carter be there too, jealously guarding his over-priced heavenly theater slurpee?

I figured Carter was there, maybe he's guarding his over-priced heavenly slurpee from Meg who finished off her large heavenly I-cee and is now aggressively gnawing on her straw. Actually I think I may have just started afterlife shipping Carter/Meg by accident. And Edward didn't really want to watch this episode.

For a long time, this show has been treating a lot of their characters as functions. They're there to fulfill some specific purpose, not to be interesting, well-rounded people... It's... bad form, I tell you. Well-written shows have characters serving functions as well, but they offset it with good character development and thoughtful plotting.

Seriously, one of my favorite shows EVER is Babylon 5 and a lot of the characters do serve their function in the story, but they're also real characters too. It can work with good writing, which this show is sadly lacking. And yeah, the secondary characters have suffered that a LOT this season (not that they didn't in the past too). I still have no idea who Tuck really is, his entire character is summer up as Robin's PR fighting monk. Allan's been that double sword wielding and accent making man this season. Much has only gotten any character arc through his crush on Kate which has just twisted his character into such a mess that I know they can't untangle it in one more episode.

They have every reason not to, though, and I almost wouldn't blame them for thinking he'd been playing them all along.

I know, as much as I want them not to turn on him, it'll be perfectly justifiable if they do. It'll hurt but I won't feel it came out of nowhere at least. But Guy truly wants Vasey dead more than the outlaws, who just want him to stop being head evil dude, Guy wants it to end in blood.

(I kind of want to see him be tempted and MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE for once.) To have him come this far and then go back to Vasey would be throwing everything he's gone through all season out the window. (Wait... that complaint sounds familiar... where have I heard that befo-- oh crap. *is now terrified for Guy's developing morality*)

Yeah, that's basically where I'm at. If I had any faith in this show, or even hadn't had last season's finale I'm not sure I would have even brought it up, but after last year...I worry. I'm trying to maintain optimism because there's really no good reason for the story to go that way, but that hasn't stopped them before.

That's about my order of odds of surviving too, although I think there's at least a bit of a gap between Much's odds and Guy's. Just because Guy's life has been in immediate peril too often of late, for him to wind up dead would make it all pointless (again, not really putting it past the writers though).

[karen747.livejournal.com]

***I figured Carter was there, maybe he's guarding his over-priced heavenly slurpee from Meg who finished off her large heavenly I-cee and is now aggressively gnawing on her straw. Actually I think I may have just started afterlife shipping Carter/Meg by accident. And Edward didn't really want to watch this episode.***

LOL! Massive WIN! Especially "aggressively gnawing on her straw." SO great! And sooo Meg. And Edward? Ahhhhh. ::waves in Memorium::

I'm totally agreeing with you both about reducing characters to merely "functions." You nailed them and called them out. All true. Absolute FAIL, writers.

***(I kind of want to see him be tempted and MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE for once.) To have him come this far and then go back to Vasey would be throwing everything he's gone through all season out the window. (Wait... that complaint sounds familiar... where have I heard that befo-- oh crap. *is now terrified for Guy's developing morality*)***
***Yeah, that's basically where I'm at. If I had any faith in this show, or even hadn't had last season's finale I'm not sure I would have even brought it up, but after last year...I worry.***

Me three, guys. Having Guy make the right choice **on his own**? Vital. We NEED that to fully achieve the Redemption Arc. However, we've all been trained to not trust the writers, show runners or TPTB on this show. Pretty sad really, but there it is.

Fingers-crossed all around that they've made some smart, coughINFORMEDcough character decisions for the finale. We shall see.

[cherish4.livejournal.com]

First he turns to Much, who’s been his best friend this year but Much will always take Robin’s side even when he shouldn’t. That one’s the one that really breaks my heart, because for all of Allan’s mocking Much, it’s clear he really was Allan’s best friend.

He was, especially after Will leaving and it was heartbreaking to see how hurt Allan was because Much didn't believe him.

Robin: low survivability odds. Jonas Armstrong is leaving and I don’t think there’s much way to get him off the show without killing him. But it’ll be the heroic death Allan didn’t get, since Robin is the title character and all.

Much: low survivability odds, mostly based on Robin’s odds. Because I just can’t see Much without Robin.

I really really don't want either of them to die but like you, I can't realistically see them making it out alive.

Kate will probably survive, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if someone else died to save her.

God I hope no one dies to save her. I could quite happily watch her get cut down like a rag doll without feeling sad. In fact I'd be bloody cheering.

Archer: the only one I’d really bet on making it out alive. He’s a new special character, he’s not going to get killed in this episode.

I rather like him now that he's joined the good guys so I hope he makes it or dies heroically saving one of the gang (but not Kate!).

[jedi_of_urth]

Without Will and Djaq, Allan needed a new friend, a shame it had to end like this.

I can't decide now I feel about Robin dying but Much will break my heart, but oh well at least if they both go I can picture them having lots of hot afterlife sex (because finally in the afterlife Robin will Treat Much Right, and see that Much is totally the love of his life).

I didn't say I'd be *happy* with Kate surviving, much less someone else being sacrificed to save her, but I won't really be surprised if it happens. TPTB seem blind to the fact that Kate is so unlikable 90+% of the time.

[cherish4.livejournal.com]

TPTB seem blind to the fact that Kate is so unlikable 90+% of the time.

Sadly they seem to have been blind to a lot of things this year.