More Journey's End thoughts

[jedi_of_urth]

So I rewatched the last half or so of Journey's End on Sci-Fi last night and it seems my zen has faded because of it.

I'd reached some compromises with myself regarding the end of the episode, but seeing it again reminded me how much I was trying to make cannon fit something I didn't have serious issues with.

Funny enough my resolutions regarding Donna's end stuck. It sucks but...that's okay, I'm allowed to think it sucks. I'm able to be okay with it because the resolution was in character and accepted as awful but better than the alternative.

Minorly still annoyed by Mickey's choice. Not because it won't be cool to see him on Torchwood (which I expect we will) because it will be; but I still don't understand it in character. I'm sticking with my personal canon that Jake died recently too and so Mickey is escaping losing his Gran and Jake and this seemed like a good way to do it. This may not be backed up by the text (which I was reminded of) but it doesn't completely seem impossible.

However, I'm back to thinking the Rose and Ten II resolution makes no sense. I'd convinced myself over the last month that Ten I did think of Ten II as the same man, but what we saw on screen reminded me that canon didn't support that. I'd managed to convince myself that Rose was conflicted and uncertain but...not what she seemed on screen. And I was thinking that while it sucked that Ten I took the choice away from her, the choice he made for her was made with the best of intentions.

On screen we have Ten I acting like Ten II is him set back to the beginning, and while like him in a lot of ways very *not him*, which makes him setting Ten II and Rose up just weird. On screen Rose isn't conflicted when it comes to Ten II, she's quite certain Ten I is the real Doctor. And I'm not sure what Ten I's thought process regarding how this was right for Rose was, Ten II get's all the lines regarding why this is totally great for them.

I'm not saying I'm convinced they couldn't be happy, but I'm certainly back to thinking this is a seriously sticky situation where I'm not happy. Sure I want to cuddle Ten I again during the Donna parts, but I'm back to wanting to kick him over Rose.

Comments

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

On screen we have Ten I acting like Ten II is him set back to the beginning, and while like him in a lot of ways very *not him*

Exactly.

Comments like this make me feel not entirely crazy for not accepting/liking the Ten II/Rose thing ...

On screen Rose isn't conflicted when it comes to Ten II, she's quite certain Ten I is the real Doctor.

That’s because Rose is nowhere near as thick as certain parts of fandom (Doctor/Rose haters, I am looking at you) would like us to believe.

[jedi_of_urth]

Comments like this make me feel not entirely crazy for not accepting/liking the Ten II/Rose thing ...

You're certainly not crazy, even when I'm trying to loop my head around it/it into my acceptance box I can certainly see why it doesn't sit well with everyone/you.

[shaela]

However, I’m back to thinking the Rose and Ten II resolution makes no sense.

I think RTD wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. He wanted the Doctor to be the Lonely God, but he also wanted the Doctor/Rose story to have a happy ending. (And I think he’s forgotten that Rose used to be more than the Doctor’s girlfriend. But that’s neither here nor there.) But you’re right—in-story, it makes no sense at all. And I don’t think the episode supports a lot of the handwaving I’ve seen people do—that Ten I and Ten II are really the same person, that Rose “chose” Ten II when she kissed him, etc. (Of course, it doesn’t support a lot of my handwaving, either. I think “Journey’s End” was so horrifying that most of us are doing are best to ignore it.)

[jedi_of_urth]

e wanted the Doctor to be the Lonely God, but he also wanted the Doctor/Rose story to have a happy ending.

Yeah, he has these two stories that he sees so contradictory. I point out that isn't the natural end of the Lonely God story arc to have him with his family and home but I guess on that RTD and I don't see eye to eye. But anyway he was all "woe I can't have both the lonely end and the happy end I want...oh wait it's sci-fi I totally can."

I've done a fair amount of handwaving myself, but then I was reminded the text didn't plan along with my handwaving so I'm back to being upset.

[shaela]

*hugs*

I keep hoping it’ll hurt less, but that hasn’t happened yet.

(The worst part? People like Moffat and Nos are starting to make sense to me. That’s probably a sign that I need to step away from the fandom.)

[jedi_of_urth]

Yes, if you're starting to agree with them...if I promise to write more of my thoughts will you stay away from them? I don't even particularly enjoy writing meta but I'll do it for you dear if it'll keep you from giving that camp any consideration.

don’t panic

[shaela]

I’m not adding Nos to my friends list or anything. I’m just furious that she can say things like, “Rose lacks agency,” and I can find myself thinking, “She has a point,” because of the way Rose’s story ended.

Re: don’t panic

[jedi_of_urth]

Sorry can't agree with you there. I see a difference between a character lacking agency and another character denying them it. Ten I didn't give Rose a choice in the matter, Ten II barely did. Sure Rose could have made her own decisions know a bit more but...she was just so blindsided I really can't say anything against her for it.

The Doctor however, I can say plenty against.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

For me, it's not that hard to reconcile. Ten(original) was very VERY pleased to see Rose again, between the mad dash down the street and mile-wide smile at knowing she was trying to get back to him. Something obviously changed between then and the end and the fell hand points to Davros(and a bit of Ten II). The Doctor was practically shaking in revulsion at the ideas Davros was spewing, but he took them to heart. Why on earth else would he be so horrified at the thought that Martha, Jack and the rest would be willing to sacrifice humanity to save the universe? I mean, what's so bad about that? Isn't it heroic? So he ends up seeing himself as a blight on his companions, not something he wants for any of them, least of all Rose.

And then he gets the perfect out- Ten II. Ten I, Ten II and Donna all think he's the Doctor. They would know, so I'm taking their word at it. Ten I says he's like an earlier version of himself. I don't know if I believe that, based on what actually happens onscreen(Ten II seems far more light-hearted and sure of himself than Ten I, that's what I see), but I can also see why Ten I would think so. His other self just did, very easily and without any remorse, the thing he's going to guilt himself forever over. Does that mean he's right? Well..draw your own conclusions, but I'd say no.

He's giving Rose a version of himself that can give her what(he thinks) she wants. Is he wrong on that too? Again, draw your own conclusions, but I'd say both yes and no in this case. Rose wants the adventure in the TARDIS. She'll get the adventure, but maybe without all of time and space. That's a loss, but it could be worse(also, I'm partial to taking the piece of the TARDIS in Ten II's pocket as my own personal canon, so there's that). And he's right in that Rose does want a life with him, one *she* makes clear won't go back to the subtexty-yet-platonic thing they had going before. She did ask, after all. Ten II is the answer, then. Do I wish that she hadn't looked so confused at the end? Yes, but then I'm not sure that would have been entirely realistic, either.

The thing hinges on this(IMO); do you believe Ten II is the Doctor or not? I don't see how the text ever says he isn't. Rather the opposite, in fact. Er, /tl;dr.

[jedi_of_urth]

I think the text of the TARDIS coral scene was part of what had lead me to my better zen place over it, but I don't see where that bit fits into the scene when I watch it, or if it did I'm less sure it would help me deal with what happens than I thought it would.

Ten II sees himself as the Doctor, Donna seems to too, but I'm not sure we ever get opinions from Ten I or Rose until that last scene it which...neither of them act like all Doctor's are the same. Ten one says "He's me" but he's not doing a good job convincing me he thinks "he's the same man as me" which is a slightly different animal. Instead his double is a "cost" or "that's me when we first met" or telling her to make him better. None of that sits quite right with me.

Ten I didn't get into the "one human life together" stuff that Ten II did, not some kind of "sucks for me but I want this for you" patronizing concept, no it was about fixing Ten II. If I'd had a hint from Ten I on screen that that was why he made the decision I'd feel better, that was what I'd convinced myself it was about, but I'm not seeing it.

[blackcat-1.livejournal.com]

Ten I says he's like an earlier version of himself. I don't know if I believe that, based on what actually happens onscreen(Ten II seems far more light-hearted and sure of himself than Ten I, that's what I see)

This is exactly what I thought on the first viewing, and still think after far too many further viewings!

The thing hinges on this(IMO); do you believe Ten II is the Doctor or not?

Yes. From what I've seen in the fandom since, those of us who accept he is the same man are quite happy about the resolution. Those that don't, are not. I can see why some people are so upset by this. Me? Well, I see this as pretty much the same thing as regeneration, so I'm rather pleased with it.
I also suspect that many of those who are unhappy about it now, will be less so when Ten regenerates into Eleven, as there will still be the potential to keep D/R alive on the parallel Earth (RTD's bound to want to do some spin-off specials later ;o))

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Remember Rose needed time (the whole Christmas episode) to accept Ten, as she was still very much in love with Nine. It will be the same for Ten II. Eventually, she'll love him as much as she loved his alien self. Because he's the Doctor (even if he's human) and I do believe Rose would love all of his incarnations.

[shaela]

Unfortunately, we got to see Rose gradually accepting that Nine and Ten were the same person. I don’t think she’d done that with Ten II by the end of “Journey’s End.” You seem to be arguing that she will, but there’s no way to be sure of that.

(We also got to see the original Ten in action and make up our own minds about the change. Given how little we saw of Ten II—and especially Ten II/Rose—I’m surprised there aren’t more people who think of them as separate characters.)

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Oh come on! He has one heart, but he is the Doctor. Just listen to him talking, just after his birth! He can drive the Tardis, and he's got all his memories! Just like a new regeneration, actually. Except he's got only one heart.
Remember what the Doctor said to Jenny: "A Time Lord is so much more. A sum of knowledge. A code. A shared history. A shared suffering."
Well, Ten II is all that!
Then, just before killing the Daleks, he tells Donna: "I'm the Doctor". There is no doubt he is.
And, finally, he gives Rose the choice about their life together, he saiys: "if you want", which is an act of love, and if you rewatch the scene, you can see Rose is really tempted by it...
At the very end, when Ten I is gone, he takes Rose's had, to help her, just like Rose had taken Ten I's hand when the tardis & Donna were supposed to be dead... I think Rose will like it, and will accept him. We won't see it on scree, all right, but that's what fanfictions are for! And maybe we'll get a few BBC books about Ten II & Rose. After all, in 2009, we'll have a book about Martha's journey during the year that never was... why not a book in the Alt!World, with the Doctor II & Rose travelling in their own tardis?

[shaela]

He has one heart, but he is the Doctor.

I understand that you believe that. I could try and explain why I don’t, but honestly, I don’t think either of us is likely to change our minds.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

So, if he's not the Doctor, who do you think he is?
John Smith? John didn't have the Doctor's mind, Ten I has it and can use it very well.
The future Valeyard?
Or, just a copy?
In every case, it's very depressing for Rose, don't you think?

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

In every case, it's very depressing for Rose, don't you think?

Yes. But it’s worse – so, so much worse – for the Doctor, don’t you think?

Edit: And by “the Doctor” I mean that poor soul left to rattle around the TARDIS by himself again.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Ten I made his choice. AND he took the choice from both his human self and Rose. My heart is broken for him, yes, but he's the one who left them there, didn't he? Rose didn't want to stay in the Alt!world, and he could taken care of Ten II in the tardis. I mean, he wanted to keep the Master last year, why not his other self? And Rose! His dear Rose he loves so much!!! And who wanted to stay with him forever! But it's HIS decision... So, if he's all alone now, he's the only one to blame.

[jedi_of_urth]

There is no doubt he is.

There is for a lot of people which isn't exactly my problem but it's there. It's kind of like regeneration only...the other one is still there and I really don't see Ten I accepting Ten II as himself (when I'm being nice I can get it to fit into my acceptance box but it's not instinctive for me when watching it).

Spin off books would probably do a world of good, although I got the impression that on some level RTD liked being evil and not having it being a clear cut happy/sad ending and there'd have to be some commitment in further canon(ish) things.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

I think accepting Ten II as the Doctor is the only way I found to accept THAT ending. If he's not the Doctor, that's too painful.
And for Rose. AND for me.

[jedi_of_urth]

On top of the fact that we weren't given the same time to adjust to Ten II, we weren't really given any of the characters accepting him as the Doctor (arguably Donna I suppose) so...how were we supposed to make that leap exactly without time or guidance.

[shaela]

Well, you could argue that Ten II thinks of himself as the Doctor. (Donna tells him to wait for the Doctor before he pushes the button, so I’m not 100 percent sure about her.) But the truth is, I didn’t need just anyone accepting him as the Doctor. I needed it from the original Doctor and Rose.

[jedi_of_urth]

Exactly, and we didn't get their acceptance of Ten II by a long shot. Ten II thinks of himself as and I want to I do, but I needed more to really get there. More time, more interaction with other character, more...reasons.

And I continue to be put off by the fact that only Ten I says goodbye to all the other companions, to me that's a big one. If they were both the same wouldn't they both have wanted to see friends off?

[jedi_of_urth]

And if Ten I had been 11, I would have expected her to still love him just as much because I would have accepted him as the Doctor but...I'm not 100% sure of Ten II. Sometimes I think he is, but other times I think...he's more like DoctorDonna, can think like the Doctor, but isn't really. I think he totally loves her but...is he still the Doctor, I'm not positive.