Guy and Noah
Jan. 1st, 2008 05:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jedi_of_urthWell, it's a new year, but I'm already back to ranting about 'Robin Hood' (I'll get back to Doctor Who soon I'm sure, but stick with me for now), but this time a little character comparison of much loved characters Guy of Gisborne and Noah Bennet.
Alright, first off I love Noah Bennet, he is by a fair margin my favorite 'Heroes' character. I love his grey morality and his conflicted loyalties and that while he is still *not* a good man, he is a good father and you know that's what's going to save him if anything does.
And before the 'Robin Hood' finale, I was saying how I wanted Guy to become the Noah Bennet of Sherwood; maybe not stepping out of the Sheriff's control, still following his own moral compass which has very few things he won't do for what he decides to do, the bastion of morally grey in the world of 'Robin Hood' where so much is black and white. And Marian as his Claire (a different relationship obviously, but the force for good in his life that changes his end goals if not his means of getting them).
It was a pretty good comparison I thought. As much as I love Noah, and mostly forgive him for his working for the bad guys, it doesn't take away all that he's done. It doesn't mean he's "forgiven" in the larger sense for what he's done to West and Nathan and Matt and Claude and Ted and his various associates he's killed, and mind-wiping his family and the vivisections the army of skeletons in his closet. Similarly Guy's recent progression towards...not the good guys but towards being an honorable bad guy doesn't forgive his leaving his illegitimate child in the forest or burning down Marian's home or the treason or all that he's done in his quest for power and position. Neither of them can ever take those actions back, nor can they truly make amends for them if they tried; they aren't going to just suddenly one day come out into the light and be reformed and washed clean.
Even through 'Heroes' season 2, with HRG out of the Company, in fact working to bring it down he was not a "good man." He still lies, he's still a killer, his work to bring down the company was motivated by a drive to protect his family, and his later season machinations to prevent the death-painting from coming true were because it was his death as much as in season 1 it had been Claire's death driving him to use Issac but dismiss all the exploding man paintings. Similarly, I did not expect Guy to run off and join the Outlaws and reveal all the Black Knights plans or anything; I expected he still had more to go before he'd turn against the Sheriff in any way besides lies of omission.
And then the finale happened and I felt that I'd lost that hope for the semi-redemption of Guy (which actually mattered more to me that Guy/Marion partly since obviously that wouldn't happen). It wasn't the "Company Man" ending which would have been very in character for Guy's arc through 2x11, putting her safety above his life, gaining her back and losing her in the same act of protecting her by letting her go.
But with a couple days reflection I've decided it could still happen (if it isn't all a bad dream, and I'm quite willing to take that option folks) except I had Guy at a different point in Noah's journey. Marian's maybe not his Claire, maybe she's his Claude. Claude was Bennet's friend, his partner, like a part of the family, but Claude betrayed the cause, he had to die. It wasn't an accident when Noah shot him, even if a part of him didn't quite mean for that first shot to go off, it was duty and passionate feeling of betrayal.
Sound like anyone else? Guy loved Marian, I won't hear otherwise; but in that moment, duty and passion and fury at her overrode his drive to save her, to protect her as he had before. He didn't *quite* mean to kill her, but it wasn't an accident that he did, he reacted just as he had to react to her betrayal, by betraying her (and himself) worse.
Does it excuse what he did? No way. He's not forgiven, redeemed, or innocent by any means and he really can't be. But I think it's canon, or at least accepted fanon that Claude's death was the first step for HRG shift his focus from following company orders to a slightly more merciful approach, which made him years later willing to go against his company loyalties and orders and choose instead to protect Claire. The thin line of exchanging vivisections for bag-and-tag with occasional murder and lots of memory-wipes, but an important distinction.
So my HRG-Guy comparison still gives me some hope that maybe this situation can be salvaged after a fashion, and that next season will continue Guy's arc of moral-greyness rather than the just going back to being Sheriff's lackey. It does *not* however excuse the writers killing Marian off, and Allan would really have been a better comparison to Claude if the plot had ended more logically (betrays his "kind" by working for the enemy, eventually can't take it any more, friend in bad side ordered to kill him because of his switch in sides).
I increasingly really want Nightwatchman-Guy next season (might completely miss Marian's "don't kill the king" point but decides to be kinder-gentler-Guy to the poor, at least when the Sheriff isn't looking), it may be completely silly and cheesy but this *is* 'Robin Hood' after all, that's hardly going to be what stops them from doing it. I still really want to mess with Robin's head realizing there are shades of grey in the world (yes I'm kind of mean to him even when he's just lost Marian).
Of course, it could all be a dream and then everything would be better.
Alright, first off I love Noah Bennet, he is by a fair margin my favorite 'Heroes' character. I love his grey morality and his conflicted loyalties and that while he is still *not* a good man, he is a good father and you know that's what's going to save him if anything does.
And before the 'Robin Hood' finale, I was saying how I wanted Guy to become the Noah Bennet of Sherwood; maybe not stepping out of the Sheriff's control, still following his own moral compass which has very few things he won't do for what he decides to do, the bastion of morally grey in the world of 'Robin Hood' where so much is black and white. And Marian as his Claire (a different relationship obviously, but the force for good in his life that changes his end goals if not his means of getting them).
It was a pretty good comparison I thought. As much as I love Noah, and mostly forgive him for his working for the bad guys, it doesn't take away all that he's done. It doesn't mean he's "forgiven" in the larger sense for what he's done to West and Nathan and Matt and Claude and Ted and his various associates he's killed, and mind-wiping his family and the vivisections the army of skeletons in his closet. Similarly Guy's recent progression towards...not the good guys but towards being an honorable bad guy doesn't forgive his leaving his illegitimate child in the forest or burning down Marian's home or the treason or all that he's done in his quest for power and position. Neither of them can ever take those actions back, nor can they truly make amends for them if they tried; they aren't going to just suddenly one day come out into the light and be reformed and washed clean.
Even through 'Heroes' season 2, with HRG out of the Company, in fact working to bring it down he was not a "good man." He still lies, he's still a killer, his work to bring down the company was motivated by a drive to protect his family, and his later season machinations to prevent the death-painting from coming true were because it was his death as much as in season 1 it had been Claire's death driving him to use Issac but dismiss all the exploding man paintings. Similarly, I did not expect Guy to run off and join the Outlaws and reveal all the Black Knights plans or anything; I expected he still had more to go before he'd turn against the Sheriff in any way besides lies of omission.
And then the finale happened and I felt that I'd lost that hope for the semi-redemption of Guy (which actually mattered more to me that Guy/Marion partly since obviously that wouldn't happen). It wasn't the "Company Man" ending which would have been very in character for Guy's arc through 2x11, putting her safety above his life, gaining her back and losing her in the same act of protecting her by letting her go.
But with a couple days reflection I've decided it could still happen (if it isn't all a bad dream, and I'm quite willing to take that option folks) except I had Guy at a different point in Noah's journey. Marian's maybe not his Claire, maybe she's his Claude. Claude was Bennet's friend, his partner, like a part of the family, but Claude betrayed the cause, he had to die. It wasn't an accident when Noah shot him, even if a part of him didn't quite mean for that first shot to go off, it was duty and passionate feeling of betrayal.
Sound like anyone else? Guy loved Marian, I won't hear otherwise; but in that moment, duty and passion and fury at her overrode his drive to save her, to protect her as he had before. He didn't *quite* mean to kill her, but it wasn't an accident that he did, he reacted just as he had to react to her betrayal, by betraying her (and himself) worse.
Does it excuse what he did? No way. He's not forgiven, redeemed, or innocent by any means and he really can't be. But I think it's canon, or at least accepted fanon that Claude's death was the first step for HRG shift his focus from following company orders to a slightly more merciful approach, which made him years later willing to go against his company loyalties and orders and choose instead to protect Claire. The thin line of exchanging vivisections for bag-and-tag with occasional murder and lots of memory-wipes, but an important distinction.
So my HRG-Guy comparison still gives me some hope that maybe this situation can be salvaged after a fashion, and that next season will continue Guy's arc of moral-greyness rather than the just going back to being Sheriff's lackey. It does *not* however excuse the writers killing Marian off, and Allan would really have been a better comparison to Claude if the plot had ended more logically (betrays his "kind" by working for the enemy, eventually can't take it any more, friend in bad side ordered to kill him because of his switch in sides).
I increasingly really want Nightwatchman-Guy next season (might completely miss Marian's "don't kill the king" point but decides to be kinder-gentler-Guy to the poor, at least when the Sheriff isn't looking), it may be completely silly and cheesy but this *is* 'Robin Hood' after all, that's hardly going to be what stops them from doing it. I still really want to mess with Robin's head realizing there are shades of grey in the world (yes I'm kind of mean to him even when he's just lost Marian).
Of course, it could all be a dream and then everything would be better.
