100 Reviews: 47
Sep. 30th, 2012 01:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jedi_of_urthOkay, so I’ve caught up with when I started doing in depth reaction posts (sometimes at least), so I can definitely track my different feelings then and now if I want.
TVD: 3x13: Bringing Out the Dead
For one for the first time literally this time I think I have found a way to make some sense of the attack on Alaric. At first of course we assumed we’d get an answer that made sense for all that had happened so far, then when it turned out we were supposed to assume Alaric was behind everything this really made no sense but I have an idea. It happened after Esther got out of her coffin so it seems possible she went to try and turn Alaric at this point but maybe was interrupted by Elena and Matt coming home...this would make more sense if vamp-Alaric had been her plan A instead of plan B, but since she had already been working on it maybe she’s a fan of the backup plan (she is the Originals’ mom after all and at least some of them are big fans of plans).
This *still* doesn’t explain why Elena’s prints were the ones found on the murder weapon. If Liz had said Elena and Alaric’s prints had been on it because it was from their house (though the bag had been in Ric’s trunk at the time) it would have worked better. But I find it hard to believe Elena’s prints would be there but not Alaric’s. This piece of the puzzle was why so many of us assumed Katherine or Tatia were involved for so long because it doesn’t make sense for Elena’s to be the *only* prints they got off it.
The attack on Bill however makes more sense than the one on the ME. Either for just dark-Ric or in Esther’s grand plan. Because dark-Ric would have a reason to go after Bill, who was so anti-vampire until he went soft on Caroline (although one would think in that case that he’d have gone after Liz days ago, although dark-Ric does seem to have regular-Ric biases since he never does anything to Elena who’s the biggest vamp sympathizer of all...although he also seemed to have plans for her); and if there was ever going to be a truly deeply self-hating vampire it would have been Bill Forbes which seems like it would have fit in well with Esther’s plot.
So that covered, it would seem time for my usual Stefan ranting, but...I’m not sure I feel like it this time. Don’t mistake that to mean he isn’t a colossal dick in this episode, because he is, especially to Elena on whose behalf I really want to smack him (be a giant tool to Klaus all you want Stef, I’ll happily watch him beat it out of you; don’t trust Elijah if you like, as much as I love the guy I *do* understand why the characters don’t; be a dick to Damon if you want, it’s self-destructive enough to almost be interesting; but STOP it with Elena (too late now to convince me you just aren’t an asshole with her)). But really there’s nothing new to discuss about his behavior here, he’s just an ass and I dislike it/him so let’s move on.
The Forbes plotline...I don’t know that I have anything new to say about it either. It’s touching, though it would have been more so if Bill had been an actual character. While I do hurt for Caroline, it mostly gives me thoughts and feels on Elena. Although one thing that I wondered about is...well, I seriously doubt Elena’s going to wake up in s4 and go “Well I may not have wanted this exactly but hand me a glass of blood and let’s get this over with” and this episode really makes me think Caroline doesn’t understand that people wouldn’t want to be a vampire. Bill was being as nice as he could about it, trying to put it in terms of beliefs about life and death but really I think it boils down to DO NOT WANT TO BE A VAMPIRE, which Elena agrees with. She has said repeatedly in word, deed, and attitude, obviously and implicitly, that she doesn’t want that and has never given any indication that she even had doubts about that desire/choice much less was rethinking it.
So yeah, I know that the show is going to have to have her turn (unless they find some way around it, let me live in denial for another week or so), but I’ll only buy it if it’s forced on her/purely instinctive or if she does it for Jeremy’s sake, NOT if they try and act like she actually wants it in any way, shape, or form. I mean, just this episode should be proof that the writers know (or did, we can’t rule out the possibility they’ll forget character motivations that they had previously made obvious) the character is against it. Elena is perfectly willing to make choices for others when she feels it’s necessary but in this case she backs Bill 100% once she’s sure he knows the consequences and it’s pretty obvious to me that it’s because she completely understand why someone would choose death over being a vampire.
I’m still not 100% convinced Klaus wasn’t mind screwing with Matt to make him extra vocal about how messed up their lives are, it’s far from out of character for Matt but it seems very convenient to Klaus’ plans for Elena that Matt sets himself up so in opposition to the rest of her life. I also completely agree with Matt on how awful things are (“This is messed up,” understatement of the show y/n?) and seeing how much I find myself agreeing with Klaus this episode that may be why I wonder if it’s connected. I hate that I’m agreeing with Klaus, I always want to be all ‘Get off my side’ about it; but on a better show it would be perfectly fitting to have a villain who says the things the heroes won’t say but are none the less true, it’s just I feel like this show doesn’t want us to agree with Klaus, even if he’s saying so many correct things IMO.
Okay, have we covered everything else and I can talk about the stuff I really care about in this episode? I better be since I pretty much have already started.
The thing about the dinner scenes is I’m really conscious now of how little I care about the Salvatores during it. I’m watching for subtle things in Elijah’s behavior and for the machinations of Klaus; the Salvatores are just props that the Originals act around as far as I’m concerned. And the thing I realize is that it’s not just that I like the Originals more than the Salvatores (of course I do, and it’s certainly partly that not gonna lie), but their motivations here are pretty...basic. They’re there because they love and want to protect Elena (shocking news to all of us I’m sure) and because they want to buy time to open the coffin, that’s it. Klaus and Elijah each have dozens of motivations that contribute to what they’re doing and it’s so much more interesting to work out their thoughts than the Salvatores.
However I’ll confess it amuses me to think that as soon as Elijah realized Elena wasn’t dating anyone at the moment part of his thought process became ‘Why did I agree to this dinner? There’s a doppelganger out there that I have squishy feelings for and she’s single, if I wasn’t single before I clearly am now, I should pass her a note and see if she like-likes me back. Damned family obligations.’
(Oh right, let’s talk about that for a second. This was literally where I started *consciously* shipping my OTP. It had been lurking in the back of my mind since 2x19, but I hadn’t ever actually thought about it more than a couple times and then only enough to notice that ‘yeah maybe I could float that ship a little’ but here I actually started testing the water and really quickly realized that I had a LOT more feelings on the subject that I’d realized before. I’ll demonstrate with some pictures.
See how it keeps getting deeper as I’m only just figuring out how deep it already is? I’m not great at metaphors or Paint, but I think it gets the point across.)
Anyway, now that I’ve taken the time to draw a super useful Paint masterpiece I seem to have lost my train of thought about the dinner conversation. And it’s so very interesting with so many things I think I wanted to talk about but I got sidetracked, this is why I don’t usually try and illustrate my thoughts I suppose. So I probably won’t try and illustrate just how much deeper I fall over the next couple episodes either.
So yeah, let’s talk about Klaus some more. Because of the three of them he’s the only one who doesn’t go into this completely on false pretenses which is probably part of why his points feel the most genuine. He’s actually trying to make a point rather than stall for time, so makes some very useful points. I just wish I knew it we were supposed to see it that way, because it’s hard to tell with this show; this is the same show that utterly refused to acknowledge Bill had good points about vampires being a menace to society or let Meredith make a perfectly valid suggestion that if the local vamps are going to help themselves to blood bags maybe they ought to give blood back to be used in place of what they took (a vial of vamp blood would serve in place of a transfusion in a lot of places I’m sure). But this one is presented almost as if we’re supposed to acknowledge Klaus has a point; presented for gross and awful reasons but that doesn’t make it untrue. ‘Cause Damon at least reacts like he kind of sees that Klaus isn’t wrong about how they’ll destroy Elena eventually and are already bad for her. Stefan of course, because he’s no longer written as the Stefan that two episodes tried to drive Elena off a bridge/turn her into a vampire/knew he’d lost her months ago even if she didn’t realize it, just gets huffy that Klaus would *dare* suggest he’s bad for her.
Now Elijah, oh man Elijah is doing so much without showing much here. He’s definitely the quiet one in the discussions, but he’s playing all of them. And until Esther showed up he’d pretty much won (aside from that he was going to have to get between Rebekah and killing Elena, but he knew he could do it (awkward pause)). I noted back in 2x22 that with Klaus around Elijah slipped back into a deferential/clean up the mess position and he seems to be toeing a line with that here until the end; we know he agreed to work with Damon but he definitely lets the others take the lead in their (pretend) negotiation and at a few points you kind of wonder if he’s gone over to Klaus’s side again.
But no, he’s toying with Klaus. Family above all yes, but the REST of the family, not Klaus. And finally he steps up and tells Klaus that no, they’re not playing by his rules anymore. Gone is the peacemaker Elijah that 2x22 and a good chunk of the dinner talk gave us; he’s making the rules now.
However, I really need to discuss his attitude towards Elena some more, because when don’t I? Even just asking about her makes me really feel that if this meeting were real he’d have made sure she was invited. He’s always pretty much only looked at the Salvatores as useful in protecting Elena where she’s the head you (if you’re him) actually deal with and there’s nothing here to suggest he’s changed that, and plenty in the next episode and later ones too, to suggest it’s still true. He’s using Damon and Stefan as tools here, so of course he doesn’t invite Elena to this sham of a dinner because he’d have to either explain the game of end up using her too and he’d rather not do either just now.
Before I close I think I have some Tatia thoughts I want to address. It’s tied in with Klaus’s point he’s making about the Salvatores and Elena, eventually their fighting over her will lead to her death but he’s also trying to get under Elijah’s skin and it’s hard to tell how much he succeeds and how much Elijah just doesn’t really want to talk about it. And you know me, I’m always interested in what Elijah says/doesn’t say/doesn’t want to say. The whole Tatia issue just fascinates me because there’s so much we just don’t know, and the attitudes of both the Originals only make me want to know more. So bring it on.
(Yeah I think I had even more on all those point, but my brain kind of wandered off during the picture thing and I never really got it all the way back.)
Next time:
I kind of want to do something else tomorrow afternoon but I’ll probably do 3x14 tomorrow night. After 3x15 I may have to fight myself a little more to keep going, but the next couple are relevant to my interests.
As always, open to suggestions
TVD: 3x13: Bringing Out the Dead
For one for the first time literally this time I think I have found a way to make some sense of the attack on Alaric. At first of course we assumed we’d get an answer that made sense for all that had happened so far, then when it turned out we were supposed to assume Alaric was behind everything this really made no sense but I have an idea. It happened after Esther got out of her coffin so it seems possible she went to try and turn Alaric at this point but maybe was interrupted by Elena and Matt coming home...this would make more sense if vamp-Alaric had been her plan A instead of plan B, but since she had already been working on it maybe she’s a fan of the backup plan (she is the Originals’ mom after all and at least some of them are big fans of plans).
This *still* doesn’t explain why Elena’s prints were the ones found on the murder weapon. If Liz had said Elena and Alaric’s prints had been on it because it was from their house (though the bag had been in Ric’s trunk at the time) it would have worked better. But I find it hard to believe Elena’s prints would be there but not Alaric’s. This piece of the puzzle was why so many of us assumed Katherine or Tatia were involved for so long because it doesn’t make sense for Elena’s to be the *only* prints they got off it.
The attack on Bill however makes more sense than the one on the ME. Either for just dark-Ric or in Esther’s grand plan. Because dark-Ric would have a reason to go after Bill, who was so anti-vampire until he went soft on Caroline (although one would think in that case that he’d have gone after Liz days ago, although dark-Ric does seem to have regular-Ric biases since he never does anything to Elena who’s the biggest vamp sympathizer of all...although he also seemed to have plans for her); and if there was ever going to be a truly deeply self-hating vampire it would have been Bill Forbes which seems like it would have fit in well with Esther’s plot.
So that covered, it would seem time for my usual Stefan ranting, but...I’m not sure I feel like it this time. Don’t mistake that to mean he isn’t a colossal dick in this episode, because he is, especially to Elena on whose behalf I really want to smack him (be a giant tool to Klaus all you want Stef, I’ll happily watch him beat it out of you; don’t trust Elijah if you like, as much as I love the guy I *do* understand why the characters don’t; be a dick to Damon if you want, it’s self-destructive enough to almost be interesting; but STOP it with Elena (too late now to convince me you just aren’t an asshole with her)). But really there’s nothing new to discuss about his behavior here, he’s just an ass and I dislike it/him so let’s move on.
The Forbes plotline...I don’t know that I have anything new to say about it either. It’s touching, though it would have been more so if Bill had been an actual character. While I do hurt for Caroline, it mostly gives me thoughts and feels on Elena. Although one thing that I wondered about is...well, I seriously doubt Elena’s going to wake up in s4 and go “Well I may not have wanted this exactly but hand me a glass of blood and let’s get this over with” and this episode really makes me think Caroline doesn’t understand that people wouldn’t want to be a vampire. Bill was being as nice as he could about it, trying to put it in terms of beliefs about life and death but really I think it boils down to DO NOT WANT TO BE A VAMPIRE, which Elena agrees with. She has said repeatedly in word, deed, and attitude, obviously and implicitly, that she doesn’t want that and has never given any indication that she even had doubts about that desire/choice much less was rethinking it.
So yeah, I know that the show is going to have to have her turn (unless they find some way around it, let me live in denial for another week or so), but I’ll only buy it if it’s forced on her/purely instinctive or if she does it for Jeremy’s sake, NOT if they try and act like she actually wants it in any way, shape, or form. I mean, just this episode should be proof that the writers know (or did, we can’t rule out the possibility they’ll forget character motivations that they had previously made obvious) the character is against it. Elena is perfectly willing to make choices for others when she feels it’s necessary but in this case she backs Bill 100% once she’s sure he knows the consequences and it’s pretty obvious to me that it’s because she completely understand why someone would choose death over being a vampire.
I’m still not 100% convinced Klaus wasn’t mind screwing with Matt to make him extra vocal about how messed up their lives are, it’s far from out of character for Matt but it seems very convenient to Klaus’ plans for Elena that Matt sets himself up so in opposition to the rest of her life. I also completely agree with Matt on how awful things are (“This is messed up,” understatement of the show y/n?) and seeing how much I find myself agreeing with Klaus this episode that may be why I wonder if it’s connected. I hate that I’m agreeing with Klaus, I always want to be all ‘Get off my side’ about it; but on a better show it would be perfectly fitting to have a villain who says the things the heroes won’t say but are none the less true, it’s just I feel like this show doesn’t want us to agree with Klaus, even if he’s saying so many correct things IMO.
Okay, have we covered everything else and I can talk about the stuff I really care about in this episode? I better be since I pretty much have already started.
The thing about the dinner scenes is I’m really conscious now of how little I care about the Salvatores during it. I’m watching for subtle things in Elijah’s behavior and for the machinations of Klaus; the Salvatores are just props that the Originals act around as far as I’m concerned. And the thing I realize is that it’s not just that I like the Originals more than the Salvatores (of course I do, and it’s certainly partly that not gonna lie), but their motivations here are pretty...basic. They’re there because they love and want to protect Elena (shocking news to all of us I’m sure) and because they want to buy time to open the coffin, that’s it. Klaus and Elijah each have dozens of motivations that contribute to what they’re doing and it’s so much more interesting to work out their thoughts than the Salvatores.
However I’ll confess it amuses me to think that as soon as Elijah realized Elena wasn’t dating anyone at the moment part of his thought process became ‘Why did I agree to this dinner? There’s a doppelganger out there that I have squishy feelings for and she’s single, if I wasn’t single before I clearly am now, I should pass her a note and see if she like-likes me back. Damned family obligations.’
(Oh right, let’s talk about that for a second. This was literally where I started *consciously* shipping my OTP. It had been lurking in the back of my mind since 2x19, but I hadn’t ever actually thought about it more than a couple times and then only enough to notice that ‘yeah maybe I could float that ship a little’ but here I actually started testing the water and really quickly realized that I had a LOT more feelings on the subject that I’d realized before. I’ll demonstrate with some pictures.
See how it keeps getting deeper as I’m only just figuring out how deep it already is? I’m not great at metaphors or Paint, but I think it gets the point across.)
Anyway, now that I’ve taken the time to draw a super useful Paint masterpiece I seem to have lost my train of thought about the dinner conversation. And it’s so very interesting with so many things I think I wanted to talk about but I got sidetracked, this is why I don’t usually try and illustrate my thoughts I suppose. So I probably won’t try and illustrate just how much deeper I fall over the next couple episodes either.
So yeah, let’s talk about Klaus some more. Because of the three of them he’s the only one who doesn’t go into this completely on false pretenses which is probably part of why his points feel the most genuine. He’s actually trying to make a point rather than stall for time, so makes some very useful points. I just wish I knew it we were supposed to see it that way, because it’s hard to tell with this show; this is the same show that utterly refused to acknowledge Bill had good points about vampires being a menace to society or let Meredith make a perfectly valid suggestion that if the local vamps are going to help themselves to blood bags maybe they ought to give blood back to be used in place of what they took (a vial of vamp blood would serve in place of a transfusion in a lot of places I’m sure). But this one is presented almost as if we’re supposed to acknowledge Klaus has a point; presented for gross and awful reasons but that doesn’t make it untrue. ‘Cause Damon at least reacts like he kind of sees that Klaus isn’t wrong about how they’ll destroy Elena eventually and are already bad for her. Stefan of course, because he’s no longer written as the Stefan that two episodes tried to drive Elena off a bridge/turn her into a vampire/knew he’d lost her months ago even if she didn’t realize it, just gets huffy that Klaus would *dare* suggest he’s bad for her.
Now Elijah, oh man Elijah is doing so much without showing much here. He’s definitely the quiet one in the discussions, but he’s playing all of them. And until Esther showed up he’d pretty much won (aside from that he was going to have to get between Rebekah and killing Elena, but he knew he could do it (awkward pause)). I noted back in 2x22 that with Klaus around Elijah slipped back into a deferential/clean up the mess position and he seems to be toeing a line with that here until the end; we know he agreed to work with Damon but he definitely lets the others take the lead in their (pretend) negotiation and at a few points you kind of wonder if he’s gone over to Klaus’s side again.
But no, he’s toying with Klaus. Family above all yes, but the REST of the family, not Klaus. And finally he steps up and tells Klaus that no, they’re not playing by his rules anymore. Gone is the peacemaker Elijah that 2x22 and a good chunk of the dinner talk gave us; he’s making the rules now.
However, I really need to discuss his attitude towards Elena some more, because when don’t I? Even just asking about her makes me really feel that if this meeting were real he’d have made sure she was invited. He’s always pretty much only looked at the Salvatores as useful in protecting Elena where she’s the head you (if you’re him) actually deal with and there’s nothing here to suggest he’s changed that, and plenty in the next episode and later ones too, to suggest it’s still true. He’s using Damon and Stefan as tools here, so of course he doesn’t invite Elena to this sham of a dinner because he’d have to either explain the game of end up using her too and he’d rather not do either just now.
Before I close I think I have some Tatia thoughts I want to address. It’s tied in with Klaus’s point he’s making about the Salvatores and Elena, eventually their fighting over her will lead to her death but he’s also trying to get under Elijah’s skin and it’s hard to tell how much he succeeds and how much Elijah just doesn’t really want to talk about it. And you know me, I’m always interested in what Elijah says/doesn’t say/doesn’t want to say. The whole Tatia issue just fascinates me because there’s so much we just don’t know, and the attitudes of both the Originals only make me want to know more. So bring it on.
(Yeah I think I had even more on all those point, but my brain kind of wandered off during the picture thing and I never really got it all the way back.)
Next time:
I kind of want to do something else tomorrow afternoon but I’ll probably do 3x14 tomorrow night. After 3x15 I may have to fight myself a little more to keep going, but the next couple are relevant to my interests.
As always, open to suggestions
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 06:16 pm (UTC)I’m really conscious now of how little I care about the Salvatores during it. I’m watching for subtle things in Elijah’s behavior and for the machinations of Klaus; the Salvatores are just props that the Originals act around as far as I’m concerned.
I didn't realise it, but you've articulated exactly the way I watched it too. All my focus was on Elijah and Klaus in those scenes.
And finally he steps up and tells Klaus that no, they’re not playing by his rules anymore.
Yes. I loved the way Elijah was biding his time until he could take control. He's calling the shots now.
Even just asking about her makes me really feel that if this meeting were real he’d have made sure she was invited.
Yeah, I think it's telling that he's clearly thinking about Elena in this episode. The Salvatores are basically props in Elijah's eyes. It also amuses me the way he looks so intrigued when he learns that Elena and Stefan are on the outs. It would be so delightful to see Elijah courting Elena.
I want to see Tatia. I hope we do this season.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 08:16 pm (UTC)It also amuses me the way he looks so intrigued when he learns that Elena and Stefan are on the outs.
I know, he looks so shocked by that news. And he has the most delightful WTF face.
It does make sense though, last time he was around Elena and Stefan were full of do-anything-for-each-other-ness and they've fallen from that a long way. But it also amuses me to think he's all 'Damn, I assumed they were still together so I didn't have a shot, must rethink gameplan on that front.'
It would be so delightful to see Elijah courting Elena.
From our lips...fingers whatever to the PTB's ears...eyes. Damn would that be something to see.
I want to see Tatia. I hope we do this season.
That too.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 11:03 pm (UTC)Same. He and Elena could be having deep and meaningful conversations with lots of subtle flirting and eye-sex, instead of this fake dinner party thing.
Damn would that be something to see.
It would. Wishful thinking, sigh.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 05:53 am (UTC)So basically every talk Elena and Elijah have had at least since she undaggered him? Though with some more flirting, since he's gone more for that this time around. To bad he's stuck with a group of guys he doesn't really like that much, even if Damon does eye sex everything.
Wishful thinking, sigh.
Sigh, it's what fanfic is for I guess.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 05:49 pm (UTC)