Thoughts on DW conversions

[jedi_of_urth]

shinyopals was talking yesterday about how to successfully convert someone to Doctor Who and it got me thinking about a few things. Like how I would like to be converted to a new show, and how to convert other people. And the difference between where I think one should start watching a show and episodes that really pulled me in.

For now we’ll just do Doctor Who, but I might decide to do some more later.


Well, in general there the fact that I’m a completist, if at all possible I will watch a show from the beginning rather than jumping in mid way or skipping around. Particularly if the show is at all story arced (yes my great lifelong love affair with B5 did not go like this, but I still think it’s why I am this way).

However for me and others sometimes the beginning isn’t the best place to get the fist sample of the show. If I haven’t already decided “I’m going to watch this” sometimes something further in is the better thing to stumble on and then decide I will watch it (from the beginning). So for me if someone has said they want to watch this Doctor Who show you keep going on about and they want you to get them into the show for me it sounds like this. They’re saying “I want to watch this show” so of course I assume we should start at the beginning.

This is not necessarily the came I can see (it’s worked for me so far…on this show at least), I suppose if they’re saying “I just want a taste to see if I might like this show” that is a slightly different matter. But I really struggle with what I would do in that case, which the more I think of it is my own biases in a lot of places.

Like, I wouldn’t start people with anything after season 2 because I just can’t imagine those seasons meaning nearly as much without having seen those first two seasons. Season 3 is quite depressing and if you don’t know how the Doctor got to that point he’s going like a total jerk and not a guy you’d be all that interested in continuing to watch. And season 4...well that’s more because most of the episodes worth their salt give away plot points in earlier seasons and I think people should be allowed to experience those with full impact.

On top of which, starting people in seasons 3 or 4 means they know Rose won’t be there for those seasons (in full companion status), and starting after season 1 gives away Nine’s regeneration. Hence why I have a hard time even recommending starting after season 1. Now if the person is a DT fan, or you just think they would really prefer Ten to Nine, I can say start with TCI without TOO much trouble, and maybe a couple of the reps in season 2, but I’d still *rather* start with seasons 1.

But really I start off by thinking my way through season 1, partly because it’s the first and (joined with) doesn’t give away future plot developments. And while I of course would say start at the beginning, I can see where “Rose” might not be for everyone; in fact I have always been glad Sci-Fi showed “Rose” and EtoW back to back the first time because it gave a better picture of the series to see both.

See, if I was to recommend the episodes that pulled me it I’d end up reccing AoL/WW3, I finally started to really *get* the characters there, and their relationship especially, however I know that popular opinion runs against those episodes so I don’t know how much a new fan would like them. I also don’t know that my own connection with them here wasn’t due to the groundwork laid in the first three eps so there’s that too.

I admit that I like a lot of people took another step up in fannish love for the show at TEC/TDD, but these days I really can’t recommend that, and I don’t want to run the risk of someone I’m converting starting out liking/loving Moffat. Selfish? maybe, but while I can see how they could be good intro eps I can also see it giving some wrong ideas about the show. Opinion on whether this is a good place to start might also depend on a person’s likely attitude towards the idea of Jack; if omnisexual space pirates from the 51st century seem like something that would excite them, it makes it a bit better idea to start there just to show them the ease of slash on this show; if however they would be put off by the idea, then that’s a point in disfavor of starting there (let’s just say I have rl friends that would fall into both categories).

A lot of people were recommending starting with EoTW and while I can’t disagree with any particular (aside from, hey if you’re going to start with ep 2, why not just start at the beginning?) but I think I have figured out why it doesn’t sit right with me, but why it works for some people.

EoTW is about the Doctor, not Rose. There’s still a lot of good stuff for Rose, but it’s the Doctor’s story, and I think for me the ep loses something if you don’t already know that storywise Rose is on equal footing with the Doctor. Which comes, even if you don’t think about it consciously which I’m pretty sure I haven’t until now, from seeing “Rose” as her intro ep, followed by EoTW as starting to peal back the layers on the Doctor. If you start with EotW, a person could start out thinking it’s the Doctor’s story and Rose is just along for the ride.

With TUD, I know I didn’t enjoy that much the first time I saw it, though I’m sure opinions can vary. But because of that I can’t, for me, recommend it as a starting point. It’s just too…quirky for me early on (yes “Rose” and EotW are quite quirky but like for Donna, it having Charles Dickens, Christmas, and ghosts was just a bit too much for me to take at the time). I actually think “Dalek” could be a good place to start sampling, but I’m not sure about following it up with TLG (another ep I have issues with) which you would logically have too do. FD seems to me to be a BAD place to start someone, except it’s fantastic and might make them excited to see more because of said awesomeness, however you’d also want to show something lighter so it doesn’t seem like the show is always such a downer (see issues with starting in s3). And the last three eps are all the final arc of the season and really need the build up of having seen almost of the season before

But as I said, my biases come from seeing the show as the story of the Doctor, Rose, and ‘the Doctor and Rose’ and that’s the story a new person is being introduced to no matter when they start the show, and so good starting points are where that story comes across (but doesn’t necessarily spoil said story). I’ll admit my biases, but maybe not to a new person, I’ll have to let them develop their own.

Comments

[faith5by5-1013.livejournal.com]

I prefer to start from the start. That's why I always give shows a few episodes to properly convert me. I usually show people the first episodes. That said, it's okay to show another episode if it's great and doesn't require any previous knowledge.

My sister has tried to convert me to a few shows and she always starts with her favorite, which usually involves a main character's death. I don't get that. There's no emotional impact if you don't know the characters.

Father's Day may not be that extreme, but I don't think that it would have the same impact if you don't know the characters, you know?

[jedi_of_urth]

That's pretty much my point. Certainly when I decide to take up a new show I start at the beginning and I that will always be my first recommendation, unless there's something "wrong" with the first episode(s) that could actively keep a person from being drawn in if they're only going to give it a few episodes to try.

By which I mean, I got burned trying to start someone at the beginning of Robin Hood, and since we only had time for a couple episodes and that was all she was going to give it unless it really grabbed her she really doesn't understand the appeal. If I had it to do again I'd start her at Djaq's intro, I think that could be a good starting point.

I really don't get your sister's idea of starting with eps of character death that seems like a bad idea. Because then a) you're spoiled that the character is going to die b) you saw it the first time with little to no emotional connection to the characters, c) you have no investment in the story yet to understand how it came about or might resonate going forward..

My first reaction was to say NO WAY to starting with Father's Day (on my first list of which eps could work), but then I thought about it and it *almost* could work. No it wouldn't have the same impact, but I think a lot of people could still identify with it even without having already connected with the characters. And like I said, the levels of awesome.

It probably says something that I thought it would be easier to start with Dalek than Father's Day but I'm not in the mood to figure out what that is.

[faith5by5-1013.livejournal.com]

A lot of people I know will only give one episode a chance, so I try to stick to the first if it's engaging and sets up the show well. I used to stick to only one episode, but that's not really a proper representation of a lot of shows.

It doesn't make any sense to start with character death episodes! It doesn't work because you don't actually care about the character and those episodes are written for people who are already fans and are impacted by the character's death. Like, after I started watching Buffy, I saw an episode with a character death from a season before and I had never seen the character in any of the episodes... I love BtVS, but there wasn't the emotional impact because I wasn't attached to that character. It's not the spoilers that bother me because my sister talks about the shows a lot and I know it's coming. It's just the lack of emotional connection. I saw an earlier episode of one of the shows she tried to convert me to and it was a really good first episode to see because it was hilarious and didn't really require knowing the characters. She said that was the first episode she saw and it hooked her. I don't get how it didn't occur to her that it's a good idea to show someone an episode that they'd enjoy rather than one that had a big impact on someone who is already a fan.

It could maybe almost work, but I don't think the whole Nine/Rose shippy stuff in the episode would really matter to the person. And I don't think that they'd be attached enough to Rose to care like they should. It is awesome though. One of my favorite episodes. I think, with DW, you'd have to convince them to sit through the first three or so episodes. I have a rule about watching the first four episodes and I wasn't sure at first, but I think most people who would enjoy it would probably get hooked at some point during one of those three episodes.

I also think comparing it to some other show they love would work. I didn't think DW would be my kind of show, but one of my rl friends told me that it reminded her of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I watched the first five or so episodes later that night because I love BtVS so much. And then because I was falling in love with the show.

[jedi_of_urth]

A lot of people I know will only give one episode a chance, so I try to stick to the first if it's engaging and sets up the show well.

I just have a hard time understanding this this idea; maybe it's because I have no life and love TV, but to me TV cannon be appreciated fully until you've watched several episodes. Even when I do fall for shows quickly I need time to...get them (of course I am *really* bad at things like character names, that might be tied in there). Sure if I *hate* the first episode I see then yeah I might not care to see more, but as long as I'm entertained and interested in one episode I'll want to see more and see if my opinion of the show goes anywhere.

It's not the spoilers that bother me

It's not exactly that for me either, but it doesn't *help* matters either. There have been times past when I've actually read spoilers (now I try and steer clear) and as long as it's well done those moments are still effecting. But like I said, it's something to keep in mind.

I don't get how it didn't occur to her that it's a good idea to show someone an episode that they'd enjoy rather than one that had a big impact on someone who is already a fan.

I know right? There's a difference between episodes that are good for hooking new viewers and ones that are awesome for long time viewers. I would *never* start someone on Bad Wolf/PotW even though they are just about my favorite episodes EVER, While I'm sure a new viewer could get why they are great (because they are so clearly amazing that how could they not), they're not going to have the same connection to it a person does having watched a season of the show.

I'm not saying FD would be my first choice to introduce people too, not by a long shot, but I think it works better than a lot of them. Because yeah a new viewer won't have already formed an attachment to the characters, but it's an episode that makes them (but especially Rose obviously) easy to relate to even without that background. At least that's my guess, I've never tried it that way.

And yeah, convincing someone who's happy to watch several episodes is best and then just start at the beginning, because that's the way the show is *supposed* to be seen. And however you con convince them of that go for it. But it was just something to think about.