Guy and Isabella thoughts

[jedi_of_urth]

I’m not sure I feel like doing a full write up on Robin Hood 3x08, at least not yet. I really liked the episode, but there’s something I feel like doing a whole post about. Obviously, Guy and Isabella, because they rule the show.

I think their conversation this week where Isabella wanted her apology and Guy wouldn’t has layers and layers of characterization and worked really well with my own reading of their history so it worked even better for me.

Thing is, they’re not talking about the same thing in that scene. Isabella is talking about how crappy her marriage was and she just wants Guy to admit that he’s in part responsible for her miserable life these last 17 years. I’m sure Guy understands (now) that Isabella was unhappy, but he doesn’t believe he did anything “wrong” in the original deal.

First off, I’m not sure how the writers expect us to take Isabella’s history. Because yes it is sympathetic that she was sold into marriage so young, but it is also a nod to historical accuracy. Why Thornton would have wanted to marry a 13 year old from an impoverished French low-mobility family I don’t know, but there could be more story there too. Women were married young and for money in those days, it was accepted practice to use marriageable girls to form alliances or deals for position, and will for centuries to come, and it’s what happened here. Does it suck for her? Yes. Does it mean that Guy’s actions were wrong? Not really.

Now back onto a character level, again I wish we had more canon stuff on the Gisborne past, because what they do give us is so good. I have my suspicious that part of Gizzy and Izzy’s differences on this issue comes from the difference in their ages and their roles before she was married. I see it as quite possible that the impoverished state of the family affected Guy more than Isabella before her marriage. Both because, as the man of the family, Guy probably dealt with it more, and because in her unhappy marriage I can see Isabella idolizing her childhood no matter their circumstances.

What also stands out to me, is the realization that Guy has asked no more of Isabella than he has of himself in that belief that they need to have position before the idea of happiness enters into it. Guy doesn’t like serving Vasey, or Prince John, or doing the things he’s asked to do to maintain his position with them but he stays. He makes the most of it as he might say. But even this season when Guy *despised* Vasey, he kept serving him, partly out of lingering bits of loyalty, but also because Guy does feel without position there’s nothing.

Yes, it was his own choice and beliefs that brought him to this point where Isabella didn’t have a say as a 13 year old girl in whether she would follow him on that choice in life and she was stuck in it horribly. But in Guy’s mind he gave her the option to make something of a life with position, the same option he gave himself. The fact that it’s brought them both plenty of misery is a whole different issue.

Not that this is to let Guy off the hook, because while in *his* mind he can justify it any way he wants, there’s also the issue that he’s also crap at admitting responsibility. Even Marian’s death, where there should be a lot fewer avenues to blame on someone else given he’s the one who stabbed her we haven’t seen him admit to yet. Do I think he *feels* it? Oh yes, but he can’t actually admit it even to himself, so he blames Robin and Vasey and probably others too, if he needs to in order to shove the blame off.

Another facet of their different perspectives comes from the consideration of alternatives. Guy suffers from a distinct lack of imagination on that front while Isabella doesn’t. Although given how long Isabella lived with her unhappy situation implies that this might be a newer development that Guy hasn’t gotten yet (actually discussing that sounds like it could be another long subject to consider).

Isabella has reached a point where she can imagine that things could be, or could have been, different. And she’s reached a point where she believes it can’t be, or have been, any worse So the apology she’s looking for is an acknowledgement of that fact. That her life sucks and the alternative couldn’t have been worse; so Guy is responsible for putting her in that situation. I would say the worst she is accusing him of is being unfeeling, not actually cruel himself; that even an admission that he was young and stupid and would do things differently now would be something in her mind. It’s not an unreasonable desire to have that acknowledged by the brother who played such a large role in bringing about her unhappiness.

Guy on the other hand is Guy about it. He’s also seriously depressed and crazy this season (more so than before) so the idea that things could have been better is not in his world view. It could have been worse in his mind, and he believes probably would have been, so better the hell you know. Add to that that for him to consider himself at fault for places where things could have been better would lead him to things with a lot less grey area than his treatment of Isabella. And if he did that he might have to change, and then it could be worse, and you see the problem there?

I know I’m probably just crazy-Guy-fangirling about it, but it actually makes me kind of sad. Even though he was nicer about it here than he had been, overall he has to be a jerk to her about it because apologizing would be admitting he’s made mistakes (the only thing I’m able to remember him ever admitting he did wrong was burning Marian’s house down; which in admitting he did wrong there did less to shake the foundations of his world than admitting him mistakes with Isabella would) and that there even was another option than the one he’s chosen.

He’s also an all or nothing personality, so apologizing for any facet of her unhappiness so of course he feels like she wants him to take responsibility for all of it, and he feels there’s enough grey area, or blame to spread, that he’s not going to take responsibility for all of it, no sir-y.

Yeah, way too long for I’m not sure how well it made the point, but I guess I needed to get it out there.

Also, in case I don’t do a post with thoughts about more than one scene of the episode, next week’s ep looks awesome for the Giz siblings. Bringing in Thornton should provide lots of opportunity for their characters to be awesome.

Comments

[karen747.livejournal.com]

A really wonderful post! So many good points raised!! The Gisborne siblings have really been preying on my mind as well, over these past several weeks, so I did a post about their possible character & life backgrounds, (and what Richard and Lara may have done backstory wise) and how that could be manifesting right now. If you have a chance to read "The Giz Kids," I'd really value your opinion & comments. Here are a few of my own, to you:

***Why Thornton would have wanted to marry a 13 year old from an impoverished French low-mobility family I don’t know, but there could be more story there too.***
I think it's because she is still nobility. And that might help to raise his own social status...and there's the fact that she's beautiful.

***What also stands out to me, is the realization that Guy has asked no more of Isabella than he has of himself in that belief that they need to have position before the idea of happiness enters into it.***
Yes, yes, YES!! Exactly! Thanks you!

***"...overall he has to be a jerk to her about it because apologizing would be admitting he’s made mistakes.***
This is absolutely right on. And as insecure as Guy is, pushing him is NEVER the way to get him on your side or to admit to anything. On the other hand, Isabella has not given him any clear reasons (on-screen) as to what was wrong with her marriage and why she finally ran. (And that's not you Guy-fan-girling). She has only said "my life was hell" and "you did this to me as a child," etc. For God's sake Issy, give the man clear, concrete examples. He's not blessed with a vast imagination, so help Guy to be sympathetic to you by SPELLING IT OUT! Abuse, violence, miscarriages, perversions, whatever. It could be done, and stated, even in this supposed kids show, considering that last night they made the Guy/PJ slash canon in one throwaway sentence, and implied all sort of other things (clever writing), so... don't you think that THIS would help! And - hello, writers - maybe help us the audience, and keep from turning Issy into a boo hiss baddie. ::simmers down & comes down off soap box:: A really great post & I, like you, are looking forward to next week. ;-)

[jedi_of_urth]

A lack of imagination, a pessimistic attitude, and an aversion to personal responsibility is a dangerous combination.

Glad you liked it (and selfishly, glad you agreed with it).

[jedi_of_urth]

I have to admit I did skim past you post of it, it looked big and important and I guess I wasn't in that frame of mind when it showed up. I should read it though and probably will soon.

He's not blessed with a vast imagination, so help Guy to be sympathetic to you by SPELLING IT OUT! Abuse, violence, miscarriages, perversions, whatever. It could be done, and stated, even in this supposed kids show

The sheer number of rape allusions this season keeps standing out to me. Granted most of them have been when Kate was captured at various times, but it kind of boggles me how much is slipping into a family show. So yeah, they could find a way to make it a little more clear at least to adults who might pick up on things; maybe when Thornton shows up we'll get it.

I do find Isabella fairly sympathetic actually, and more so I find her an interesting character (you know, like Guy), but her motivations have been kind of...undefined and could definitely do with some flashing out.

Thanks for reading and glad you liked. Glad it came off clearly enough to others because I felt a little undirected myself writing it.

[karen747.livejournal.com]

***it looked big and important and I guess I wasn't in that frame of mind***

Yikes, I should have done it in smaller bites, clearly. Didn't want to turn anyone off - just wanted to get those two crazy kids out of my head.

It's not an academic essay, just postulates re: some things, throws out some ideas, and gives Richard and Lara lots of props. There are even moments of humor. (gasp!) And, If it makes any difference, I ended it by giving Guy some specific advice about escaping...which amazingly he took up, as far as getting himself to Locksley... and then blew the rest of to hell. Ah well. ;-) He wouldn't be in a cage now if he'd listened to me. Or tied up and gagged either, and the fan girls would have HATED me. (hee)

***The sheer number of rape allusions this season keeps standing out to me. Granted most of them have been when Kate was captured at various times, but it kind of boggles me how much is slipping into a family show.***

I know! And in this last one, re: Isabella being taken by Sheriden and PJ saying at least you won't be in the dungeon, etc. Please! And yes I hope Issy character is more fleshed out and we learn more this coming week with Thornton's arrival. Interesting: I expected him to be a much older, unattractive man. I wonder why they would cast someone clearly attractive? Hmmm. And yes, you came across clearly, while working things through. Well done!

[jedi_of_urth]

He wouldn't be in a cage now if he'd listened to me. Or tied up and gagged either, and the fan girls would have HATED me. (hee)

First hee, yes we would have missed that. But also, if Guy would only follow our advice he wouldn't be nearly as screwed up right now. I mean, we told him to take Marian's deal last season, kill Vasey (although I would have missed him) and marry Marian and be hot and sexy together. There done...except for all kind of issues that would have grown out of that which would have been awesome.

Interesting: I expected him to be a much older, unattractive man. I wonder why they would cast someone clearly attractive?

I was shocked too. I was picturing an older man, more like Vasey I guess. I suspect from the preview they're going with a younger but cruel man which yeah could make her life hell just as easily easily I'm sure, but it cut against expectations.

[corrielle.livejournal.com]

I found myself nodding vigorously as I read this.

I’m sure Guy understands (now) that Isabella was unhappy, but he doesn’t believe he did anything “wrong” in the original deal.

That is a hugely important distinction... I wonder if Guy showing some small bit of UNDERSTANDING without remorse would have appeased her somewhat. I think that you're right, though... Guy at this point sees anything along the lines of "I'm sorry you were unhappy" as a admission of guilt on his part.

What you said about Isabella romanticizing her childhood more makes a ton of sense, and it might also explain why she was so ready to romanticize her possible life with Robin.

What also stands out to me, is the realization that Guy has asked no more of Isabella than he has of himself in that belief that they need to have position before the idea of happiness enters into it.

in Guy’s mind he gave her the option to make something of a life with position, the same option he gave himself.

Yes. Just... yes. And in his mind, her inability to stay in a horrid situation was weakness. (It has to be... if her leaving is admirable, then Guy is faced with the fact that he should have left the Sheriff years ago.)

[jedi_of_urth]

I wonder if Guy showing some small bit of UNDERSTANDING without remorse would have appeased her somewhat.

I think it would have meant some to her, maybe enough to put off selling him out to Prince John if not enough to make her like him really, it might have been giving her something that registered on her measurement of Guy humanity. In some ways I think that scene could have been the beginnings of a conversation on Guy's part about why he did what he did in that instance, asking her if she really knows what the alternative was (or at least could have been, and in Guy's mind worst situation probably takes the role of would have been). Could have been that, but these two characters are going to have a really hard time talking to each other like adults though.

Guy at this point sees anything along the lines of "I'm sorry you were unhappy" as a admission of guilt on his part.

I don't think she realizes the enormity of what it would mean to him to give her that, or maybe she does in which case no wonder she expects him to disappoint her. But I still think what she wants is smaller than what it means to Guy, not in words but in the spirit it would take to get there. She thinks she's asking the impossible of Guy because he's too proud to say that too her when the reason it's impossible is, again, bigger to him.

What you said about Isabella romanticizing her childhood more makes a ton of sense, and it might also explain why she was so ready to romanticize her possible life with Robin.

Yeah, I was really thinking about her dream life with Robin there, because I can kind of see that being her dream about how things might have been. Married to a good man even if they had to live poor they'd be happy and have beautiful children together. But I'm also not sure she, unlike Guy I'm certain, has considered the trade offs of that. They would be poor, they wouldn't have money or security, they would have to work the land themselves and they may not have enough to take care of all those beautiful children. She believes it would have been the good version of peasant life and I'm not saying it couldn't have been, but it comes off as a bit romanticized.

And in his mind, her inability to stay in a horrid situation was weakness. (It has to be... if her leaving is admirable, then Guy is faced with the fact that he should have left the Sheriff years ago.)

Exactly, if it's impossible to make the best of a situation like theirs and one needs to break away in order to find something better then...he's been wrong all this time and everything he's done hasn't been making the best of a bad situation but only prolonging it. And, just to say it, in which case killing Marian means even less than it ever has, and I don't think he's able to justify that one as it.

Looks like this came off a lot better than I was afraid it did, thanks for the feedback and glad it worked for you too.

[karen747.livejournal.com]

***Could have been that, but these two characters are going to have a really hard time talking to each other like adults though.

YES! Absolutely. They really seem locked intheir childhood roles - which is almost logical having spent no real time together as actual adults.

***She believes it would have been the good version of peasant life and I'm not saying it couldn't have been, but it comes off as a bit romanticized.

You know, the point you made about Issy romanticizing her childhood really does make a HUGE amount of sense, especially in relation to her dream with Robin. And is possibly reinforced by her repeated cries to Guy of of "you did this to me as a child" when at 13, in that era, she was NOT a child. But perhaps she likes to look back and THINK that she was, and that that is when her childhood ended...as perhaps it did. So, an excellent point.


***And in his mind, her inability to stay in a horrid situation was weakness. (It has to be... if her leaving is admirable, then Guy is faced with the fact that he should have left the Sheriff years ago.)

***Exactly, if it's impossible to make the best of a situation like theirs and one needs to break away in order to find something better then...he's been wrong all this time and everything he's done hasn't been making the best of a bad situation but only prolonging it.

You BOTH make an EXCELLENT point here. And this is why we will (possibly) never hear an "I'm sorry" from Guy UNLESS that Redemption Arc kicks in, --OR-- something so heinous about the marriage is revealed that even he is horrified and it overcomes his own self-involvement with the statement, and he says he's sorry for her - spontaneously - without acknowledging his own "guilt." Perhpas just an "I'm sorry." Period. But again only under EXTREME duress which I don't know how they could just allude to on a family show. Great points, folks! ;-)

[jedi_of_urth]

at 13, in that era, she was NOT a child. But perhaps she likes to look back and THINK that she was, and that that is when her childhood ended...as perhaps it did.

She was definitely young enough for it to be looked back on as the dividing line. It's possible she wasn't fully treated as an adult in a lot of ways before that (Guy being closed off and dismissive so she was kept out of "adult" matters) and yet then she was married off to Thornton. There's the clear dividing line of before and after her marriage on one side of which goes her childhood and on the other her adulthood.

it overcomes his own self-involvement with the statement, and he says he's sorry for her - spontaneously - without acknowledging his own "guilt."

Yeah, there are few instances where I can kind of see it working, but no matter what it's going to be a big this to hear him say just because of how little he's willing or able to ever acknowledge those kind of things. But I do think if they have plans for redeeming Guy (as much as I crave it I'm not holding my breath) I think we might get it but even then in the it's-really-too-late-for-this-but sense.

[karen747.livejournal.com]

***There's the clear dividing line of before and after her marriage on one side of which goes her childhood and on the other her adulthood.

Yes! Absolutely. Especially Issy being kept out of "adult" matters, yet suddenly she's married and an adult. That's tough at the best of times. Yes, an absolute dividing line.

***Yeah, there are few instances where I can kind of see it working, but no matter what it's going to be a big this to hear him say just because of how little he's willing or able to ever acknowledge those kind of things. But I do think if they have plans for redeeming Guy (as much as I crave it I'm not holding my breath) I think we might get it but even then in the it's-really-too-late-for-this-but sense.

Yes. He really can't acknowlege things like this. And I have to agree, it might be a well-here-you-go type of apology, a la too-little-too-late, and then only if it's shown to be of major import TO GUY and to what he holds dear...what could THAT be? Hmmm.

I wonder if they won't try to use it to bang the "Guy is Bad" drum one more time, prior to the (hoped for) Redemption Arc? To muddy those waters even more? And then have the "I'm sorry" be the starting point? Then something major and violent (season finale?) (I know...Looking in the sun again. Ah me.) I crave the Guy Redemption Arc too. It's just so...right there. I hope we're not all disappointed. We'll see about Issy and Thornton shortly . ;-)