Arrow update (plus Avengers)
Dec. 7th, 2018 04:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jedi_of_urthI figure since next week is the Elseworlds event, I ought to post my feelings on the last couple Arrow episodes.
Arrow 7x07
I have a weird feeling about this one. I can see what it wants to be, and what it wants to be it does fairly well. But very little of what it wants to be was set up (I also have a thought I’ve been nursing this whole arc that I’m going to try and talk through now as it’s at least as relevant here as it had been before and it should be talked through...I think).
What this episode feels like it wants to be, it’s the big final showdown of the prison arc. It acts like this is the story where all the pieces of that story that have been building for this season arc exploding in one big final climax. And the story of this episode mostly works; but the story as a grand coming together of all the plots set up doesn’t work at all hardly. It wants to be about how Oliver has made allies and enemies while he was on the inside, and all of that needed to come to a head before he got out; only the prison arc has been disjointed enough and already had one climax in the level 2 story leaving this to not really feel like it’s paying off things that were set up.
One thing I will say has been set up and foreshadowed and just not exactly a surprise as a twist, is that Stanley (I finally learned his name) isn’t that good a guy. His wrongfully accused plea was always a little fishy as we didn’t get any other details, and the last couple episodes have been showing it as the probable lie it always seemed likely to be. I mean it’s possible that whatever he actually got convicted for wasn’t something he was guilty of, but that doesn’t make him a poor innocent victim.
On the other hand you have the fact that Tiger’s face turn was not foreshadowed at all. While Brick was always shown to be the ringleader, Tiger was never shown unwilling to be part of whatever the game was. Part of the problem for me with the way this episode goes down overall, and it’s connected to the issues with Tiger, is that literally everyone else goes all in on the chaos once Diaz sets it loose. If there were others who were looking for a place to hide or were just putting up their hands and not stopping others but not going in for the riot themselves, it would have seemed believable to me. So the fact that Tiger, who hasn’t exactly been sitting back and keeping his head down up to now is the one who gets the semi-anti-hero treatment for the episode is a little awkward with me.
Also, Oliver and Tiger’s talk about how Oliver has changed and is less black and white and more grey-seeing...none of it really fit. Oliver hasn’t seen the world in black and white in a long time; I don’t even think he really did back in s1, by the time the series even starts he’d gone through the first mess with Slade (watching his friend fall to the dark side) and was himself a member of the Russian mob and seeing that good people can do evil things and vice versa; but I think by the time he starting palling around with Malcolm after everything...or at the latest after everything he went through with Prometheus (including Robert’s secret) I don’t think Oliver really thinks in that much black and white terms.
Weird bit in that is that it almost seems comical thinking back to Oliver deciding to go it alone for a while last season. Oliver is nothing if he doesn’t have someone along for the ride, he needs to be part of a team so badly he starts teaming up with members of the suicide squad.
Plus, where did Oliver’s escape kit come from? Was it something that came in with his kit constantly and he never got into it before? If it weren’t for the piece inside the soup I’d believe he was MacGyvering it together, but that piece means someone got him the stuff and he knew it was there, but it’s never come up before.
Now for the thought I normally wouldn’t get into but, since I still need to work out some feelings on it, I’m going to. I thought about discussing this as far back as the premier but talked myself out of trying to talk about it until now. Anyone else notice that this prison is full of mostly white inmates? I thought of it at the start because I kind of expected this plot might have more of a comment on the state of the American prison system. That Oliver would get inside the prison and find out there were plenty of people who had been wrong accused or unfairly given to harsher sentences than they might have deserved. That it was going to be about Oliver seeing things in new light, learning something which weirdly this episode seems to think in some form was there, but they never actually did anything to earn. Look, my point is that when Crazy Ex-Girlfriend works to shed light on inequities in the justice system, and Arrow just creates a prison full of white people, there’s something a little weird here. That said, since this show was not going for the examination of flawed justice but rather showing everyone in the prison was a terrible person ready to embrace the Purge if they got the chance (not that there can’t be equally guilty and cruel non-whites and the white people here), they may have tripped over their own social conscious feet doing this.
Arrow 7x08
I have a lot of problems with this episode that are getting in the way of the fact that I can tell I want to like it. So this is just sort of scattershot thoughts this time.
-Couldn’t they at least mention Thea? The Oliver I know would really want to touch base with her after everything.
-I’m kind of annoyed that they’re playing up Oliver having prison PTSD; newsflash, this guy has more PTSD issues than you can shake a stick at. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have difficulty coming back from prison, in fact I’m saying that this yet another layer of shit to the seven level shit cake that is Oliver Queen’s life, so him wanting to be done would make a hell of a lot of sense. But they’re downplaying all his past issues and upscaling his present ones in a way that compromises the story for me.
-Because Felicity is in the right. Oliver is not allowed to judge her for changing because circumstances forced her to do so. This is partly what I mean by the balance being off, because if he was upset because he knows the road she’s walking and is trying to spare her from it, it’s one thing; if he’s telling her she’s not supposed to be able to change like that, he’s hypocritical and wrong. I’m not sure yet that the show doesn’t know that, but the balance feels off.
-I’m not even saying Oliver would be wrong to say ‘hey honey, maybe you should check yourself before you turn in to me; and I know you like me and all, but I’m a twelve layer shit cake. Also, I don’t like me, so I really don’t want you to be me.’ I may think Felicity is in the right, but I can see Oliver’s feelings not being entirely wrong, if they were handled a bit better.
-While Oliver and John still have good chemistry in what they do get to play off each other, I’m pissed we didn’t get much actual material between them. Especially since the scene in the Bunker feels kind of out of step with John’s other scenes. There feels like a lot more resentment in that scene than there ought to be.
-So the flashforwards are not also flashbacks, meaning I now disapprove of them a lot more. They were always going to be a difficult story to fully connect even in my assumption, but if they’re not also flashback, then the series needs to have a very good plan as to how to get to that point, and I don’t think they would ever actually lead to that point. (It’s not impossible for TV shows to do it –after all Babylon 5 is my first and truest TV love – but it requires planning.) Now it’s just this weird side-plot that I don’t have little hope will be pulled off well. It’s not like I ever liked the flashback that much, but at least they theoretically had a point and an arc to them.
-The last couple scenes of the episode include like six continuity problems in two minutes. 1) Didn’t Oliver have Robert’s grave moved when he came back from the dead? 2) If he didn’t it’s now too close to the house for where it was. 3) When did Queen Manor burn down? 4) Seriously, do they still own the property? If not, how do the new owners feel about having a grave so close to the ruined house? 5) What happened to there being 52 Earths (plus Earth X) according to last year’s crossover? Now there are at least 90. And that’s just the five mistakes I remember off the top of my head.
-Also, I’m kind of not sold on the reveal of the supposed NGA; I sort of feel like it’s too soon to be given the answer and comes a little too cheaply. I kind of feel like we’re being set up for another twist in that story. If not...well I’m not entirely surprised Robert Queen might have other children, but I don’t quite see how this story is going to hold together; or maybe this is an interdimensional sibling from another Earth.
Plus, some very short thoughts on the Avengers 4 trailer
Tony Godsdamn Fucking Stark. Break my heart more man. I don’t even think he’s going to die in the movie much less in the scene we saw since it probably happens three minutes into the movie, and that still hurts.
Clint’s family totally got snapped.
I have a feeling like everything we saw is from like the first 15 minutes of the movie. Where everyone is after the snap, some getting the band back together, everybody super depressed. None of what the actual plot to fix it is going to be yet. That’s a great thing.
Now, I may be stuck in my own read of things, but I think the stinger with Ant-man has actually been heavily edited. I think Ant-man is going to show up like that, but I don’t think Steve and Nat would look at him like they couldn’t believe he was there. No, I think their reaction (“is this an old message?”) is going to be to Coulson getting in contact. Now that I say that, I think I’m right about the editing, but probably wrong on why; it could be Tony, it could be and old message from Fury about resources in case of apocalypse, might be footage from Captain Marvel from the 90s. If still could be Coulson, but I think I will back off the odds (which were never super high).
I have a sense I’m going to end up shipping Steve/Nat after this. I kind of did in Winter Soldier, but I needed them to go further with it, and the movies since then haven’t resold me on the idea. But this well might.
The title was on the short list of expected options for me, but I still love that they made it a reveal.
But seriously, Tony godsdamned Stark, I love you man. I just want him and Pepper to come through this together.
Arrow 7x07
I have a weird feeling about this one. I can see what it wants to be, and what it wants to be it does fairly well. But very little of what it wants to be was set up (I also have a thought I’ve been nursing this whole arc that I’m going to try and talk through now as it’s at least as relevant here as it had been before and it should be talked through...I think).
What this episode feels like it wants to be, it’s the big final showdown of the prison arc. It acts like this is the story where all the pieces of that story that have been building for this season arc exploding in one big final climax. And the story of this episode mostly works; but the story as a grand coming together of all the plots set up doesn’t work at all hardly. It wants to be about how Oliver has made allies and enemies while he was on the inside, and all of that needed to come to a head before he got out; only the prison arc has been disjointed enough and already had one climax in the level 2 story leaving this to not really feel like it’s paying off things that were set up.
One thing I will say has been set up and foreshadowed and just not exactly a surprise as a twist, is that Stanley (I finally learned his name) isn’t that good a guy. His wrongfully accused plea was always a little fishy as we didn’t get any other details, and the last couple episodes have been showing it as the probable lie it always seemed likely to be. I mean it’s possible that whatever he actually got convicted for wasn’t something he was guilty of, but that doesn’t make him a poor innocent victim.
On the other hand you have the fact that Tiger’s face turn was not foreshadowed at all. While Brick was always shown to be the ringleader, Tiger was never shown unwilling to be part of whatever the game was. Part of the problem for me with the way this episode goes down overall, and it’s connected to the issues with Tiger, is that literally everyone else goes all in on the chaos once Diaz sets it loose. If there were others who were looking for a place to hide or were just putting up their hands and not stopping others but not going in for the riot themselves, it would have seemed believable to me. So the fact that Tiger, who hasn’t exactly been sitting back and keeping his head down up to now is the one who gets the semi-anti-hero treatment for the episode is a little awkward with me.
Also, Oliver and Tiger’s talk about how Oliver has changed and is less black and white and more grey-seeing...none of it really fit. Oliver hasn’t seen the world in black and white in a long time; I don’t even think he really did back in s1, by the time the series even starts he’d gone through the first mess with Slade (watching his friend fall to the dark side) and was himself a member of the Russian mob and seeing that good people can do evil things and vice versa; but I think by the time he starting palling around with Malcolm after everything...or at the latest after everything he went through with Prometheus (including Robert’s secret) I don’t think Oliver really thinks in that much black and white terms.
Weird bit in that is that it almost seems comical thinking back to Oliver deciding to go it alone for a while last season. Oliver is nothing if he doesn’t have someone along for the ride, he needs to be part of a team so badly he starts teaming up with members of the suicide squad.
Plus, where did Oliver’s escape kit come from? Was it something that came in with his kit constantly and he never got into it before? If it weren’t for the piece inside the soup I’d believe he was MacGyvering it together, but that piece means someone got him the stuff and he knew it was there, but it’s never come up before.
Now for the thought I normally wouldn’t get into but, since I still need to work out some feelings on it, I’m going to. I thought about discussing this as far back as the premier but talked myself out of trying to talk about it until now. Anyone else notice that this prison is full of mostly white inmates? I thought of it at the start because I kind of expected this plot might have more of a comment on the state of the American prison system. That Oliver would get inside the prison and find out there were plenty of people who had been wrong accused or unfairly given to harsher sentences than they might have deserved. That it was going to be about Oliver seeing things in new light, learning something which weirdly this episode seems to think in some form was there, but they never actually did anything to earn. Look, my point is that when Crazy Ex-Girlfriend works to shed light on inequities in the justice system, and Arrow just creates a prison full of white people, there’s something a little weird here. That said, since this show was not going for the examination of flawed justice but rather showing everyone in the prison was a terrible person ready to embrace the Purge if they got the chance (not that there can’t be equally guilty and cruel non-whites and the white people here), they may have tripped over their own social conscious feet doing this.
Arrow 7x08
I have a lot of problems with this episode that are getting in the way of the fact that I can tell I want to like it. So this is just sort of scattershot thoughts this time.
-Couldn’t they at least mention Thea? The Oliver I know would really want to touch base with her after everything.
-I’m kind of annoyed that they’re playing up Oliver having prison PTSD; newsflash, this guy has more PTSD issues than you can shake a stick at. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have difficulty coming back from prison, in fact I’m saying that this yet another layer of shit to the seven level shit cake that is Oliver Queen’s life, so him wanting to be done would make a hell of a lot of sense. But they’re downplaying all his past issues and upscaling his present ones in a way that compromises the story for me.
-Because Felicity is in the right. Oliver is not allowed to judge her for changing because circumstances forced her to do so. This is partly what I mean by the balance being off, because if he was upset because he knows the road she’s walking and is trying to spare her from it, it’s one thing; if he’s telling her she’s not supposed to be able to change like that, he’s hypocritical and wrong. I’m not sure yet that the show doesn’t know that, but the balance feels off.
-I’m not even saying Oliver would be wrong to say ‘hey honey, maybe you should check yourself before you turn in to me; and I know you like me and all, but I’m a twelve layer shit cake. Also, I don’t like me, so I really don’t want you to be me.’ I may think Felicity is in the right, but I can see Oliver’s feelings not being entirely wrong, if they were handled a bit better.
-While Oliver and John still have good chemistry in what they do get to play off each other, I’m pissed we didn’t get much actual material between them. Especially since the scene in the Bunker feels kind of out of step with John’s other scenes. There feels like a lot more resentment in that scene than there ought to be.
-So the flashforwards are not also flashbacks, meaning I now disapprove of them a lot more. They were always going to be a difficult story to fully connect even in my assumption, but if they’re not also flashback, then the series needs to have a very good plan as to how to get to that point, and I don’t think they would ever actually lead to that point. (It’s not impossible for TV shows to do it –after all Babylon 5 is my first and truest TV love – but it requires planning.) Now it’s just this weird side-plot that I don’t have little hope will be pulled off well. It’s not like I ever liked the flashback that much, but at least they theoretically had a point and an arc to them.
-The last couple scenes of the episode include like six continuity problems in two minutes. 1) Didn’t Oliver have Robert’s grave moved when he came back from the dead? 2) If he didn’t it’s now too close to the house for where it was. 3) When did Queen Manor burn down? 4) Seriously, do they still own the property? If not, how do the new owners feel about having a grave so close to the ruined house? 5) What happened to there being 52 Earths (plus Earth X) according to last year’s crossover? Now there are at least 90. And that’s just the five mistakes I remember off the top of my head.
-Also, I’m kind of not sold on the reveal of the supposed NGA; I sort of feel like it’s too soon to be given the answer and comes a little too cheaply. I kind of feel like we’re being set up for another twist in that story. If not...well I’m not entirely surprised Robert Queen might have other children, but I don’t quite see how this story is going to hold together; or maybe this is an interdimensional sibling from another Earth.
Plus, some very short thoughts on the Avengers 4 trailer
Tony Godsdamn Fucking Stark. Break my heart more man. I don’t even think he’s going to die in the movie much less in the scene we saw since it probably happens three minutes into the movie, and that still hurts.
Clint’s family totally got snapped.
I have a feeling like everything we saw is from like the first 15 minutes of the movie. Where everyone is after the snap, some getting the band back together, everybody super depressed. None of what the actual plot to fix it is going to be yet. That’s a great thing.
Now, I may be stuck in my own read of things, but I think the stinger with Ant-man has actually been heavily edited. I think Ant-man is going to show up like that, but I don’t think Steve and Nat would look at him like they couldn’t believe he was there. No, I think their reaction (“is this an old message?”) is going to be to Coulson getting in contact. Now that I say that, I think I’m right about the editing, but probably wrong on why; it could be Tony, it could be and old message from Fury about resources in case of apocalypse, might be footage from Captain Marvel from the 90s. If still could be Coulson, but I think I will back off the odds (which were never super high).
I have a sense I’m going to end up shipping Steve/Nat after this. I kind of did in Winter Soldier, but I needed them to go further with it, and the movies since then haven’t resold me on the idea. But this well might.
The title was on the short list of expected options for me, but I still love that they made it a reveal.
But seriously, Tony godsdamned Stark, I love you man. I just want him and Pepper to come through this together.
