jedi_of_urth (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
jedi_of_urth) wrote2015-04-17 01:01 am
jedi_of_urth) wrote2015-04-17 01:01 am
pre rewatch meta
So, in continuing to not watch B5, here’s a thought experiment I’ve found myself doing about the proposed viewing order. As already shown in my intended viewing order, I do not support starting with In The Beginning. For one, I’m largely doing things in release order for my schedule, but really I don’t think there are many who would find it a good idea to watch ITB first.
Just to even the argument, let’s assume you cut out the opening shots of Delenn with hair, I’m sorry that should not be there. Arguably need to cut out the vid screen of her and Sheridan at the end too (Londo enjoys watching WWE2 as much as I do, or maybe he was hoping to watch porn), but it’s mostly shadowed so could count as a tease rather than a full spoiler.
There are obviously things that are...structurally spoilery. Sheridan is are main human protagonist (I’d argue Delenn is the main character though) with Sinclair only showing up for ten minutes at the end, so a newbie would be more surprised by Sheridan not being in the first season than when Sinclair leaves down the road and Sheridan ‘resumes’ his role as lead. Similar, but not as big an issue with Franklin; he’s not as prominent in the movie and not out of the show for the same length of time, nor would necessarily be in competition with Kyle being the doctor in The Gathering, since they could be working together for all a newbie knows.
Also you lose some of the...smallness of s1 already having heard about the mythic forces at play on the story. I think you would always be waiting for the bigger monsters to rear their heads instead of getting to know the universe and people first before pulling the story into the mythic scope. While I’m not sure it damages the story (it might but I don’t quite want to say it clearly would), it does end up framing the story differently.
In general, with ITB you ware watching the show as it will be, just set before. The effects are season 4 level; the scope is season 4 level; although the characters are younger and in story less developed, the level of characterization is in keeping with season 4 level; the knowledge of how the story ends, and the casual-ness with which it is presented to the viewers is obviously at season 4 levels. Which, if you think your newbie needs to see what the show will be, rather than starting with the rather bare level of The Gathering, then maybe there’s value in starting with ITB; but I think for a lot of people having to take that step back could be rather off-putting and difficult.
There are three characters arcs that I want to single out as seeming very different seeing this first.
Londo:
I’d almost argue it would be brilliant to go from Emperor Londo back to Gathering Londo and see the road he walks always knowing where it leads. To be fair, I started watching in season 2 and didn’t see s1 until long after I’d seen WWE (many, many times), so in a way I can relate to that possible experience. It’s classic tragedy, tell you upfront how a character’s story ends and make you watch every wrong turn they take to get there; and since Londo starts setting this up in MOTFL (arguably in The Gathering) a newbie would see the story arc being set up all along. Plus it makes a good lead in to Londo narrating the opening of The Gathering.
Delenn:
It’s actually Delenn who does the most to make me unwilling to start any newbie with ITB (even if I could edit out the chrysalis spoiler) because early Delenn should be mysterious and enigmatic, and her being the main driver of the plot in ITB takes a lot of that away. Technically I never really had that relationship with early Delenn as, again, I knew her well before going back to s1, but I can see that Delenn is a story best gradually revealed. It’s not so much that it hurts the story to know her atoner motivation, or be quite clear on how much she knows but isn’t telling Sinclair; but going from Delenn as a known character to Delenn the cryptic subtle manipulator is the wrong direction, especially since we don’t get the middle of her story. It’s not the same as knowing the end of a character’s journey, we only really see Delenn in the past after all, and Londo is pretty sparing talking about her later role; it’s such radically different framing of a character that I think it would be very jarring to a new viewer. To say nothing of...really almost anything in The Gathering.
And to be honest, as good as Mira is at playing Delenn as a younger character, she’s playing a younger version of s4 Delenn; the established character rather than the one still in development. JMS and Mira know who Delenn is in this story, and it’s not always how she’s written or portrayed in the early episodes. It’s there, but it’s completely raw and unfinished; and when it’s the first thing you see you can roll with the story as it gets things sorted; but if you see a character/actor/writer so clearly sure and then have to watch them go through to process of figuring it out...I think it would feel all wrong.
Sinclair:
Sinclair is kind of a mix of the Londo and Delenn situations, and as such I’m especially conflicted about whether I think it would work to see it first. It sort of depends on how you want the hypothetical newbie to view Sinclair. If you want them to see him as the main character then do not start with ITB; as already said, it makes it pretty clear Sheridan is you actually leading man so whatever Sinclair’s fate it’s not to lead the show, but also I think you want your newbie to go through to process of uncovering the truth along with Jeff. Knowing the ITB story first puts you in Delenn’s role, watching and waiting to see if and how and when he figures it out and what the consequences of that might be.
The story maybe shines more if you start with ITB. As a latecomer myself I’d say it is actually helps as it smooths over some edges caused by the storyline being changed mid arc. There is little or nothing in s1 that outright contradicts the fate we did get for Sinclair which is what’s in mind here, so you see it as a character progressing towards his natural fate; which isn’t necessarily the perception of people watching through until they see how it comes together. And it comes off as even more planned as a newbie only has the vaguest clue what having the soul of Valen would even mean, so everytime Delenn mentions Valen from then on, the viewer knows that it’s somehow relevant to Sinclair. It’s also quite fitting in places, because if someone comes out of ITB wondering about this soul idea, only a few episodes later is Soul Hunter to address that question. But I do think, again, that it casts the Minbari as the main players – what lies do they tell, how far will they go to keep their secrets – rather than the focus being on Sinclair’s journey of discovery the way s1 is written and the story intended to unfold. It’s not exactly knowing the secrets that’s the problem, it’s that the framing of s1 shows that you’re clearly not meant to know them at the beginning of the show. Rewatching is different, even watching it late is different, because you can still see that this is the beginning of the story, if ITB is the beginning (as the title would suggest) then the story Sinclair and the Battle of the Line seems really badly done.
As small side note, does it ever bug anyone that they didn’t de-age him in ATSFOS (which makes sense for the episode as it’s s1-Sinclair reliving the experience) or for reuse here? Sure the other actors are clearly older actors being made to look younger (less noticeable on the aliens), but O’Hare ends up sticking out like a sore thumb as someone actually playing their own age making him look like the old man to the others as youngins. Doesn’t really bug me much, but niggles a little.
Then there are things that would make absolutely no sense to a newbie and would just seem weird without knowing the context. They spend an awfully long time discussing the Shadows and going to Z’ha’dum...and then it has no bearing on the story; it’s only relevance after that is to make Delenn feel worse and motivate her to try and (unsuccessfully) make peace, without making it all that terribly clear way those randomly mentioned Shadows are a motivating force. Half of what Emperor Londo says would seem as unknowable as Kosh, and there is virtually no explanation for any circumstances of the 2278 scenes; you hardly get to know the Centauri as a people in the past so why really care about them in the future?
I think the issue is that there’s a difference between being a prolog and a prequel. A prolog should set the stage and flow naturally into the story proper, The Gathering is a prolog. While a prequel is meant to be seen as part of an established world, author and audience being aware of that established world; and ITB is...in some ways not even that considering the Londo framing device and how much time is spent in it. I can see the value in places of seeing a prequel as prolog (I’ve often wondered how future generations will or should approach the Star Wars films), and I can see it in places here. It’s not the worst idea, it’s well done and showcases a lot of B5’s strong suits even in a vacuum, and it could make for an interesting first and continuing viewing experience for the right audience; but I can’t recommend it. It’s proper place is either post-s4 (airing order), pre-SiL(future chronology), or post series (likely where a lot of people watch it), not pre-Gathering, and that’s just the way I see it.
And seeing as I’m not sure I’ve ever met anyone who saw it that way, I don’t seem to be in the minority.
Just to even the argument, let’s assume you cut out the opening shots of Delenn with hair, I’m sorry that should not be there. Arguably need to cut out the vid screen of her and Sheridan at the end too (Londo enjoys watching WWE2 as much as I do, or maybe he was hoping to watch porn), but it’s mostly shadowed so could count as a tease rather than a full spoiler.
There are obviously things that are...structurally spoilery. Sheridan is are main human protagonist (I’d argue Delenn is the main character though) with Sinclair only showing up for ten minutes at the end, so a newbie would be more surprised by Sheridan not being in the first season than when Sinclair leaves down the road and Sheridan ‘resumes’ his role as lead. Similar, but not as big an issue with Franklin; he’s not as prominent in the movie and not out of the show for the same length of time, nor would necessarily be in competition with Kyle being the doctor in The Gathering, since they could be working together for all a newbie knows.
Also you lose some of the...smallness of s1 already having heard about the mythic forces at play on the story. I think you would always be waiting for the bigger monsters to rear their heads instead of getting to know the universe and people first before pulling the story into the mythic scope. While I’m not sure it damages the story (it might but I don’t quite want to say it clearly would), it does end up framing the story differently.
In general, with ITB you ware watching the show as it will be, just set before. The effects are season 4 level; the scope is season 4 level; although the characters are younger and in story less developed, the level of characterization is in keeping with season 4 level; the knowledge of how the story ends, and the casual-ness with which it is presented to the viewers is obviously at season 4 levels. Which, if you think your newbie needs to see what the show will be, rather than starting with the rather bare level of The Gathering, then maybe there’s value in starting with ITB; but I think for a lot of people having to take that step back could be rather off-putting and difficult.
There are three characters arcs that I want to single out as seeming very different seeing this first.
Londo:
I’d almost argue it would be brilliant to go from Emperor Londo back to Gathering Londo and see the road he walks always knowing where it leads. To be fair, I started watching in season 2 and didn’t see s1 until long after I’d seen WWE (many, many times), so in a way I can relate to that possible experience. It’s classic tragedy, tell you upfront how a character’s story ends and make you watch every wrong turn they take to get there; and since Londo starts setting this up in MOTFL (arguably in The Gathering) a newbie would see the story arc being set up all along. Plus it makes a good lead in to Londo narrating the opening of The Gathering.
Delenn:
It’s actually Delenn who does the most to make me unwilling to start any newbie with ITB (even if I could edit out the chrysalis spoiler) because early Delenn should be mysterious and enigmatic, and her being the main driver of the plot in ITB takes a lot of that away. Technically I never really had that relationship with early Delenn as, again, I knew her well before going back to s1, but I can see that Delenn is a story best gradually revealed. It’s not so much that it hurts the story to know her atoner motivation, or be quite clear on how much she knows but isn’t telling Sinclair; but going from Delenn as a known character to Delenn the cryptic subtle manipulator is the wrong direction, especially since we don’t get the middle of her story. It’s not the same as knowing the end of a character’s journey, we only really see Delenn in the past after all, and Londo is pretty sparing talking about her later role; it’s such radically different framing of a character that I think it would be very jarring to a new viewer. To say nothing of...really almost anything in The Gathering.
And to be honest, as good as Mira is at playing Delenn as a younger character, she’s playing a younger version of s4 Delenn; the established character rather than the one still in development. JMS and Mira know who Delenn is in this story, and it’s not always how she’s written or portrayed in the early episodes. It’s there, but it’s completely raw and unfinished; and when it’s the first thing you see you can roll with the story as it gets things sorted; but if you see a character/actor/writer so clearly sure and then have to watch them go through to process of figuring it out...I think it would feel all wrong.
Sinclair:
Sinclair is kind of a mix of the Londo and Delenn situations, and as such I’m especially conflicted about whether I think it would work to see it first. It sort of depends on how you want the hypothetical newbie to view Sinclair. If you want them to see him as the main character then do not start with ITB; as already said, it makes it pretty clear Sheridan is you actually leading man so whatever Sinclair’s fate it’s not to lead the show, but also I think you want your newbie to go through to process of uncovering the truth along with Jeff. Knowing the ITB story first puts you in Delenn’s role, watching and waiting to see if and how and when he figures it out and what the consequences of that might be.
The story maybe shines more if you start with ITB. As a latecomer myself I’d say it is actually helps as it smooths over some edges caused by the storyline being changed mid arc. There is little or nothing in s1 that outright contradicts the fate we did get for Sinclair which is what’s in mind here, so you see it as a character progressing towards his natural fate; which isn’t necessarily the perception of people watching through until they see how it comes together. And it comes off as even more planned as a newbie only has the vaguest clue what having the soul of Valen would even mean, so everytime Delenn mentions Valen from then on, the viewer knows that it’s somehow relevant to Sinclair. It’s also quite fitting in places, because if someone comes out of ITB wondering about this soul idea, only a few episodes later is Soul Hunter to address that question. But I do think, again, that it casts the Minbari as the main players – what lies do they tell, how far will they go to keep their secrets – rather than the focus being on Sinclair’s journey of discovery the way s1 is written and the story intended to unfold. It’s not exactly knowing the secrets that’s the problem, it’s that the framing of s1 shows that you’re clearly not meant to know them at the beginning of the show. Rewatching is different, even watching it late is different, because you can still see that this is the beginning of the story, if ITB is the beginning (as the title would suggest) then the story Sinclair and the Battle of the Line seems really badly done.
As small side note, does it ever bug anyone that they didn’t de-age him in ATSFOS (which makes sense for the episode as it’s s1-Sinclair reliving the experience) or for reuse here? Sure the other actors are clearly older actors being made to look younger (less noticeable on the aliens), but O’Hare ends up sticking out like a sore thumb as someone actually playing their own age making him look like the old man to the others as youngins. Doesn’t really bug me much, but niggles a little.
Then there are things that would make absolutely no sense to a newbie and would just seem weird without knowing the context. They spend an awfully long time discussing the Shadows and going to Z’ha’dum...and then it has no bearing on the story; it’s only relevance after that is to make Delenn feel worse and motivate her to try and (unsuccessfully) make peace, without making it all that terribly clear way those randomly mentioned Shadows are a motivating force. Half of what Emperor Londo says would seem as unknowable as Kosh, and there is virtually no explanation for any circumstances of the 2278 scenes; you hardly get to know the Centauri as a people in the past so why really care about them in the future?
I think the issue is that there’s a difference between being a prolog and a prequel. A prolog should set the stage and flow naturally into the story proper, The Gathering is a prolog. While a prequel is meant to be seen as part of an established world, author and audience being aware of that established world; and ITB is...in some ways not even that considering the Londo framing device and how much time is spent in it. I can see the value in places of seeing a prequel as prolog (I’ve often wondered how future generations will or should approach the Star Wars films), and I can see it in places here. It’s not the worst idea, it’s well done and showcases a lot of B5’s strong suits even in a vacuum, and it could make for an interesting first and continuing viewing experience for the right audience; but I can’t recommend it. It’s proper place is either post-s4 (airing order), pre-SiL(future chronology), or post series (likely where a lot of people watch it), not pre-Gathering, and that’s just the way I see it.
And seeing as I’m not sure I’ve ever met anyone who saw it that way, I don’t seem to be in the minority.